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Cannon mag 10 STX stopped working

BrokeOff

BrokeOff
in This Old Boat

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Tesoro

Tesoro

Posted
Posted

Hi I am out in Oregon. I use mag 10 ts and we are right in last week of salmon season and my up switch quit on one rigger yesterday. Of course with 15# ball 150 ft deep! I could not figure out how the tool worked - might have been for a diff cannon that was on boat before. I hand pulled it up. 

 

I just put a new board in that one a month ago. One of the relays was cooked. I found relays at supply place for a couple of bucks each. interested to find out about the socket idea for easy replacement. 

 

taking my rigger apart this morning to see what happened. I have good wiring and just redid it so who knows. But I did blow a fuse 2x on that rigger over the last 4 weeks. 30amp but they looked like cheap opaque fuses. put in good quality one and nothing since then.

 

I have a spare board and if switch bad ( doubtful) can get one at napa.

lrg355

lrg355

Posted
Posted
Put in the new board and it worked fine. Will remove relays when I get home. May be able to solder in a socket so plug in relays can be used. Will check it all out.

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Tried to de-solder the relays from the board. The 3 tabs from the contacts came out fine. The 2 tabs from the relay coil did not work so well. Their "trace" was on the opposite side of the board and did not completely release. The traces pulled away from the board and broke away staying on the relay solder tab. I was able to solder a small piece of wire on each of the remaining trace and I hope to save the board. Before I try to remove the second relay, I will get a hotter soldering iron and a different method to suck up the molten solder from the trace. I was using a small vacuum bulb and never had any luck with those. I need to get some of the solder wicking flat cable which works better. The relays are available from Digi-key for $1.94 each. They have cut down tabs to go into the holes on the board. It may be more appropriate to leave the relays intact and solder wires to the back side. There are relay sockets with wires available. The relay is a A21CSP from CIT Relay and Switch Co. An A21CSQ would have the full 1/4 tab to go in a socket. This would work well as long as the old relays continue to move even if the the contacts are burned.
It would also be possible to cut the relay case apart , remove the contacts and coil to gain access to the soldered tabs. Then solder the wires from a socket to them. This may work better.
Still working to improve solder removal and technique.20200804_160441.jpeg20200804_160531.jpeg

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Tesoro

Tesoro

Posted
Posted

Yikes that work is above my pay grade!  but thanks.  if you get it figured out I know a guy who fixes boards and who does micro soldering. Sent him a board out of my macbook that got water damage and he replaced the 10cent part that made it inoperable.

lrg355

lrg355

Posted
Posted

Not the relay "coil", but the whole relay. That is the device shown in the picture. There are two of them on the PWB (printed wiring board) of the 5st and 10stx. They are $1.94 each online. The whole control board will cost $75 with shipping. Twice that if you have a service center do it. The contacts in the relay corrode and /or burn and become useless, than no function on the rigger.

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lrg355

lrg355

Posted
Posted

Not a tubular shape, that is a capacitor. The relays are about a 1 inch black square block. If u have a large tubular capacitor on the board, it is not a 5st or 10stx board. The "caps" on that are rectangular white blocks.

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  • 6 months later...
ArcherFishing

ArcherFishing

Posted
Posted (edited)

I have been following this topic for a year now and went thru all sorts of testing myself with my cannon mag 5 st downriggers that i got with my boat. the guy that owned my downriggers before even told me he had issues with them going down.  I had the exact same issues with mine and assumed it was the relays. bought some relays off amazon and attempted to de solder the ones on the board and attach harnesses. turns out just like lrg355 found out, its really hard to remove the relays. so i got the dremel out and just destroyed the relay and solderd the harness to the backside of the board. after all of that it still didn't go down. then i just broke down and ordered a new board off fish 307 for 60 bucks. plugged it right in and it still only worked one direction. After eliminating the switch and the board the only thing left is the motor. I took the motor apart which was pretty easy to do and noticed that one of the magnets on the shroud came loose because they barely used any epoxy to attach them. i could even see a small amount of wear on the magnet. i used some epoxy and glued it right back into place. put it all back together and now it works. i didn't know this until i got it running but the down speed is slower than the up speed. there must be some resistance on the board to make it do this and the magnet rubbing just put it over the top and it wouldn't run. i could hook up the motor directly to a battery and it would work both directions which made me think it wasn't the motor. I really hope this helps someone else that is frustrated with these. Sure it could be something else but i got two with the exact same issue.

Edited by ArcherFishing
  • Like 1
Tesoro

Tesoro

Posted
Posted

what a PITA!!  but at least you found it. 

I have 3 burned out boards. One board I got last summer from canon directly did not work. I called and the guy sort of made a slip and told me it must have been from one of the bad batches they got from china. he sent me a replacement that worked...for a while. I dont know jack about electronics but did look up relays and they burn out when shorted. so who knows.  

And then I found this!!!!!

 

https://www.mikesreelrepair.com/cannon-050175-3394006-modified/

lrg355

lrg355

Posted
Posted

The older mag 10 cannons used Omron relays that were rated for 5 ramps and they would not hold up well. The 5st and 10 stx use a much larger relay but they seem to malfunction prematurely. That website you referenced seems to have set up the new st/stx board to be used in the older Mag 10. Good news for older model Cannon owners.
Most of the time guys just put in a switch and get rid of the board in older units when they go out.


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Tesoro

Tesoro

Posted
Posted

makes sense. and then the up/down switch is integrated into the board via the relayss? get rid of the board and you need to be 'on the ball' for retrieve! I am looking forward to getting mine fixed properly with the new boards and selling them!

lrg355

lrg355

Posted
Posted

When you push the up switch it turns on the coil in the relay. The coil is then "latched" on electronically keeping the retrieve relay contacts closed. The switch is momentary and returns to the neutral position when released. The up relay remains latched electronically until the cable clears the water and circuit break causes it to unlatch.
To go down you must hold the switch as there is no electronic latching


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ArcherFishing

ArcherFishing

Posted
Posted

I did see that other board for the older downriggers. I was searching really hard for an updated version of my board that may have fixed the issues im having but no luck.  Im in the process of fixing my second downrigger and the motor appears to be fine. I am wondering if the drag on the motor over a long period of time might be burning up the boards. I think ill solder another relay on the old board and see if that fixes it but i almost think its something else on the board that is burning up. I can get it to go down if i click up and then down really fast. almost like its giving the other relay a boost or something. I wish i knew more about electronics so i could just re design a better board. I would much rather pay 60 bucks for an updated board than one that will have the same issues later down the road.

lrg355

lrg355

Posted
Posted

If I have a problem the first thing I usually do is check the motor under load. To do this you can hook the cable on something stationary and set the clutch to allow about a.medium load equivalent to about 10 or 15 lbs. Remove the motor cables from the board. Make some cable extensions to reach the battery, one should have an inline fuse of about 20 amp. Attach one motor lead to the battery. When touching the other lead to the other side of the battery, it should run. If it runs backward, ie down, stop quickly before a mess is made. If it runs in the up direction under a med load your motor is ok. Reversing the leads on the battery will make it run in the opposite direction.
You can make a mess of the cable fast if not careful and quick in the down direction. If the motor is ok, it is probably the short stop board. If you keep the motor leads disconnected and you push the switch up, you should hear the relay click on each push up. Same thing for the down switch push, should hear a slight click if listening carefully. This is a good indication the switch is ok but the relay on the board is probably not. If you reattach the motor wires to the board and can hear the relay click but get no motion, relay contacts are probably burned. You can check for 12 vdc on the terminals for the motor leads with a meter and may see 12 volts when the switch is pushed up. This does not mean much because I have seen 12 v there on a meter with no load but under motor load the burnt relay contacts can't do the job.

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lrg355

lrg355

Posted
Posted

As for the drag causing the relays to burn up, I don't believe that is a possible factor. If there were no drag and it was a direct connection from motor to cable pulley, that would make no difference on motor load until the end of the cable hit something. What would be a.problem would be unacceptable load caused by a tight.pulley or tight bearings or something similar.
.

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  • Like 1
ArcherFishing

ArcherFishing

Posted
Posted

Man lrg355 it does seem like you know more than I do on this stuff. You are nailing everything that i was trying like putting a meter on the posts i did see its 12v without any load on it. A big improvement on the board would be relay harnesses and then at least i could change them out myself when they go bad. Ive learned that lesson on my outboard when your motor wont go up and you want to go home lol. I know im supposed to send them to cannon and pay to have them repaired...

Tesoro

Tesoro

Posted
Posted

Scotties are sounding better all the time. Scotty would never leave their customers high and dry by cancelling production of problematic parts in not so old units. I guess thats the diff when a long time established company makes products with lifetime warranty.

 

 

RodBuster

RodBuster

Posted
Posted

FWIW The down speed is reduced via a resistor in series with the motor when the down relay is activated. It is done because the motor running in conjunction with gravity pulling  the weight down is too fast.  That being said the voltage at the motor will be 13.8 VDC (Nominal) while raising the motor and something less when lowering.

On thing to try immediately upon a failure is to identify the solder joints where the relays connect to the board , and touch each of them with a drop of solder. I found cold solder joints a few times. 

I have 5 Cannons and they are poorly designed in many aspects.  I inherited them on the boat when I bought it, so that's why I am living with the problems. 

  • Like 1
ArcherFishing

ArcherFishing

Posted
Posted

RodBuster this is awesome information. I too got mine with the boat. I figured that is why the down was slower, I also suspect that down is more susceptible to not working due to the resistor somehow but thats just a guess. Up always seems to work luckily.  My boss actually mentioned cold solder joints being a possible issue also. Tomorrow ill get to work on diagnosing it hopefully.

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