Another 20% CUT in Chinook Stocking for 2019

[rolmops]

The lakers still have to recuperate from 2 years of intensive fishing by charters because of the lack of kings. That is a slow process. Any charter boat captain (specially those on the east en) who is anti laker should remember that they probably saved his business a few years ago. So please do not curse the lakers.

Also going with the wild succes of this year's salmon fisheries it seems to me that the DEC fish people are quite spot on  and the "stock more salmon crowd" not so much. To me , the DEC has the science to back up their decisions while the anti DEC arguments are mostly based on opinion and short range business interest. All of you anti DEC  Science folks should take a trip to Gloucester and have a good look at what politically and business  motivated decisions have done to the fisheries.

[Gill-T]

Rollie nobody is anti-DEC here. Wrong usage of words. Just having a lively debate. If your job relied on the fishery, I would guess your tune would be slightly different. 

[Gator]

Much as I love and respect Brian, Vince, Scott, Rob (agree with Belize, by the way), and others who have voiced their opinions, I will weigh in on the opposite side. Stocking numbers were cut by 20% several years ago, and we had our best fishing arguably ever this past summer. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't the two year old fish we've been pounding the same year class as was cut? If so, the cuts sure didn't impact our success. I hear numerous voices claiming that Lake Ontario can't go the way of other Great Lakes. I disagree. I'd rather accept DEC's management plan and be wrong than crash the fishery entirely. That having been said, I don't fish for lake trout and Nothing but Net would be sold if the king fishery disappeared.

[Gill-T]

This bears repeating because I keep hearing incorrect references to Lake Huron......Lake Ontario’s food web is intact. The reason you saw THE BIGGEST ALEWIFE HATCH ever recorded just two years ago was a mild winter and a food web to support baitfish numbers. 

[rdebadts]

This bears repeating because I keep hearing incorrect references to Lake Huron......Lake Ontario’s food web is intact. The reason you saw THE BIGGEST ALEWIFE HATCH ever recorded just two years ago was a mild winter and a food web to support baitfish numbers. 

Perhaps, but the warning signs are there. Diatom concentrations are way down, as are mysis numbers. And quaggas are extending into deeper water. We are in better shape for sure, but as long as quaggas continue to proliferate I am worried.


The Fishin' Physician Assistant

[Sweet Caroline]

Forget the science if you want. Higher catch rates and declining size equals less forage. I don’t know any other way to interpret that. Not over 1 year, or 2 years, or even 5 years. This has been a trend for at least 15 years. Yes, Lake Ontario is more productive than other Great Lakes, but there still needs to be a balance. If I’m reading the DEC report correct the biggest alewife hatch in 2016 that we talk about is not so big anymore. Most likely because they have been decimated by heavy predation. Hoping for a warm winter to pull of another great bait hatch is not a great strategy to manage a fishery.

 

There were many mornings this season when we caught upwards of 20 salmon. If I caught 20% less or even 50% less that still is a catch of 10-15 salmon in a morning...and the chance of the fish being larger. All is well in my book.

Edited September 29, 2018 by A-Lure-A

[Gill-T]

I think the issue is do we need MORE cuts in the face of scientific and anecdotal evidence. We had two recent rounds of cuts. Do we really need more???  

[GAMBLER]

The trawls from this spring are skewed due to weather and the fact that the trawling vessel was out for motor repairs during the key time to find alewife still in the bottom.


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[GAMBLER]

Much as I love and respect Brian, Vince, Scott, Rob (agree with Belize, by the way), and others who have voiced their opinions, I will weigh in on the opposite side. Stocking numbers were cut by 20% several years ago, and we had our best fishing arguably ever this past summer. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't the two year old fish we've been pounding the same year class as was cut? If so, the cuts sure didn't impact our success. I hear numerous voices claiming that Lake Ontario can't go the way of other Great Lakes. I disagree. I'd rather accept DEC's management plan and be wrong than crash the fishery entirely. That having been said, I don't fish for lake trout and Nothing but Net would be sold if the king fishery disappeared.

The huge year class of two year olds is due to the huge natural reproduction class found on the Salmon River in 2016.


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[Missdemeanor]

A lure A .... There is one other way to look at it..... Genetics...
Steve LaPan has admitted that staff at the Hatchery take both large and smaller "Mature" salmon. Now I don't have a fancy college piece of paper on my wall , but I understand basic genetics... Tall people who have kids...kids tend to be tall... Two chocolate labs bred together tend to produce choc pups...
In other words.... Genetics can play a big role ...
I'll go on record to say I saw a ton of bait out there...cleaned a lot of kings ( all had bait in them) ...

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[GAMBLER]

Genetics and the fact that the year classes that were born in the low YOY bait years started life off with little food to eat. If you look at the state of the lake meeting from the past two years, last years two and three year old kings that were at the hatchery were below average in weight. I believe 1.5lbs and 3 lbs. therefore, they should be smaller as adults. Lake Ontario is still putting out 30lb fish. When Michigan cut they were barely seeing any 20lbs fish. 30’s were unheard of.


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[Sweet Caroline]

Genetic selection is a good point, but that would mean that the DEC would consistently be choosing smaller fish over larger fish. I believe they just take from fish as they come down the line. Doesn’t explain higher catch rates either, unless we all are becoming that much better of fisherman year after year:)

Again, never mind what has happened with natural reproduction, bait trawls, the weather, etc over the past 5 years, the long term trends are very indicative of a growing predator to prey ratio. 

 

[GAMBLER]

The catch rates are due to a huge class of two year olds in the lake.


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[rdebadts]

So is the data is skewed, and it may be, that’s still all they have to work with. It shows a big blunting of the 2016 yoy, which tells me they got feasted on. The big 2012 year class will be out of the system by next year, so that leaves us with one big huge year class, 2 slightly below average classes and two nonexistent year classes. Caution seems advisable. You don’t want to be wrong in the side of too many predators.

I get the hesitancy with cuts, as generally something isn’t restored once cut. But correct me if I’m wrong, arent we coming off back to back recording setting fishing?? is it possible that this is due to a well managed lake???????

I think we all want the same thing here guys- good fishing for years to come!


The Fishin' Physician Assistant

[GAMBLER]

21 minutes ago, rdebadts said:

So is the data is skewed, and it may be, that’s still all they have to work with. It shows a big blunting of the 2016 yoy, which tells me they got feasted on. The big 2012 year class will be out of the system by next year, so that leaves us with one big huge year class, 2 slightly below average classes and two nonexistent year classes. Caution seems advisable. You don’t want to be wrong in the side of too many predators.

I get the hesitancy with cuts, as generally something isn’t restored once cut. But correct me if I’m wrong, arent we coming off back to back recording setting fishing?? is it possible that this is due to a well managed lake???????

I think we all want the same thing here guys- good fishing for years to come!


The Fishin' Physician Assistant

The great fishing in 2018 was due to the huge year class of wild kings from the salmon river.   Management can't take credit for that.   The skewed data can show way less 2016 YOY class due to the movement of bait in the spring.  The later they trawl, the more chances the bait moved off the bottom where they trawl.   

[Gill-T]

My anecdotal evidence suggests what Brian is proposing. My boat was catching 25-40 kings per day in May, all above 40’ down over mid to deep water, all with adult alewives in their stomachs. My leadcore got wore out. The adult alewife population was out of deep winter pattern early this year. Bottom trawlers may have missed a good portion of the population. 

[ut_falcon]

The best fishing in years did not occur on the north shore of the lake, its pretty clear the conditions this year kept the majority of salmon on the south shore. I'm skeptical about another 20% cut being needed (40% total now) with no additional cuts to lakers. You can't argue depleted baitfish while pushing the laker numbers that just smells of an agenda. We are still seeing the effect of the cold winter on chinook size, let's see what happens next year. If size is up its because of the last few warm years and nothing to do with stocking cuts.

[GAMBLER]

Right from the state of the lake meeting minutes.  See the bold / underlined area below. 

 

 Average weights and condition (a measure of “stoutness”) of salmonines at a given age serve as a

potential index of relative balance between the number of predators (primarily salmonines) and

preyfish; however, water temperatures also influence fish growth and condition. Average weights

and condition are calculated for salmonines examined from the open lake fishery (Section 2) and

as spawning adults at the Salmon River Hatchery (Section 9).

 Chinook salmon growth measured from the open lake fishery was below average in 2014 – 2017.

The August 2017 mean length (35 in) of age-3 Chinook salmon was over 1.7 in shorter than the

long-term average. However, Chinook salmon condition or relative “stoutness” in 2017 was one

of the heaviest values observed for Chinook salmon 28 in. Below average summer temperatures

may have negatively impacted growth in length, however, the good condition of Chinook salmon

≥ 28inches indicated that alewife (the primary forage of Chinook salmon) abundance was sufficient

to maintain Chinook condition (Section 2).



[Capt Vince Pierleoni]

23 hours ago, GAMBLER said:

Right from the state of the lake meeting minutes.  See the bold / underlined area below. 

 

 Average weights and condition (a measure of “stoutness”) of salmonines at a given age serve as a

potential index of relative balance between the number of predators (primarily salmonines) and

preyfish; however, water temperatures also influence fish growth and condition. Average weights

and condition are calculated for salmonines examined from the open lake fishery (Section 2) and

as spawning adults at the Salmon River Hatchery (Section 9).

 Chinook salmon growth measured from the open lake fishery was below average in 2014 – 2017.

The August 2017 mean length (35 in) of age-3 Chinook salmon was over 1.7 in shorter than the

long-term average. However, Chinook salmon condition or relative “stoutness” in 2017 was one

of the heaviest values observed for Chinook salmon 28 in. Below average summer temperatures

may have negatively impacted growth in length, however, the good condition of Chinook salmon

≥ 28inches indicated that alewife (the primary forage of Chinook salmon) abundance was sufficient

to maintain Chinook condition (Section 2).



Correct Brian. Both sides of the mouth. ONE river is getting the big returns this fall. 

[jimski2]

The failure to determine forage failure is a lack of considering the effects of walleyes, bass,perch, whitefish and others on the forage base. Back when the health advisories came out, the harvest of many species ended. No studies have been announced on them yet the only attention is the salmon, trout, species. Studies should indicate the complete biomass to be credible.


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[rolmops]

On 9/29/2018 at 10:58 AM, rdebadts said:

I get the hesitancy with cuts, as generally something isn’t restored once cut. But correct me if I’m wrong, arent we coming off back to back recording setting fishing?? is it possible that this is due to a well managed lake???????

I think we all want the same thing here guys- good fishing for years to come!


The Fishin' Physician Assistant

The DEC originally introduced the salmon to the lake in order to control the exploding alewife population. The salmon fishing was not a big part of the original plan. It has become more important today because of the financial impact. But alewive control is still the chief target of the DEC. We should all expect the DEC to keep making making decisions that mostly have to do with Alewive control , not the salmon fishery.

If more salmon are needed, more salmon will be stocked

Edited September 30, 2018 by rolmops

[GAMBLER]

29 minutes ago, rolmops said:

The DEC originally introduced the salmon to the lake in order to control the exploding alewife population. The salmon fishing was not a big part of the original plan. It has become more important today because of the financial impact. But alewive control is still the chief target of the DEC. We should all expect the DEC to keep making making decisions that mostly have to do with Alewive control , not the salmon fishery.

If more salmon are needed, more salmon will be stocked

The DEC stocks to keep the alewife at bay, support a sport fishery and most important keep the target levels for native species.  If the alewife numbers rise, so will the laker and atlantic numbers.  The writing is on the wall again with the cuts.  Kings are the only species getting cut. 

[Lucky13]

L

[Lucky13]

Cuts to Lake Trout stocking are maintained at 20%, and have been deeper than that for the last two years due to Hatchery problems.  Atlantic Salmon have much greater space needs in a hatchery, and according to earlier NYSDEC reports, could only be raised at a one Atlantic for 100 kings ratio.  Neither is likely to ever supplant the king as alewife control, and the Fish Community Objectives have not been changed, which would be necessary for a change in “Official Policy.”   We have not seen what the fishery is like under the initial cuts, and it may be virtually indistinguishable from a “normal” year, when there are some salmon in Canada, but if you guys want to keep shooting yourselves in the foot with the “Sky is Falling” prophesies, they will likely become self-fulfilling in the minds of the out of staters and locals who hire charters.  There are still over 2.7 million fish going in on the US side of the lake, plus a VERY large component of natural reproduction.  As to this fall’s runs, it is only the last day in September, and most south shore tributaries are just settling into temperatures conducive to salmon spawners, it is still early. 

 

Capt Perlioni  said something to the effect that without predation, the alewife population will crash itself.  Why didn’t this happen before the kings?  We had die offs and windrows, but we had fish dying of old age due to complete lack of predators.    And if the steelhead are putting such a huge dent in the YOY alewife, where are the adults coming from in the “clouds of bait” being reported  all over the place?  I can see having a story and sticking to it, but it should at least be logical.

 

I will reiterate what I have said publicly, and on a PM earlier this week, if I wanted to see the end of the King Salmon in Lake Ontario, I would be pushing for a big bump in stocking, put lots more herring eating machines out there, and the alewife will crash rapidly.  Some of you guys seem all to ready to take one big roll of the dice with everything on the line, and I don’t think that is wise policy.  I am thankful, as King Davy has said, that we have a chance to ward off a lake wide collapse, and a management team willing to stick their necks out and take the heat to be proactive and prudent.

[youp50]

Do you have Federal Hatchery there?  Feds push LT in Lake Michigan.  Its a current mindset, out with the invasive, in with the native. 

 

State of Michigan bought in and reduced king stocking in Lake Michigan.  Wisconsin flipped the Feds off and plant twice the kings the state of Wisconsin does.  State of Michigan has rivers and streams capable of natural reproduction.  Wisconsin, not so.

 

Its good to see debate and exchange of information.  Its especially refreshing to see it done without malice.

 

There is little doubt that I will have to be out there next year....  although Alaska is calling, too.  And Nipigon Bay. And....