Dead Steelhead at Burt Dam

[jimski2]

Sockeye salmon reproduction is dependent on dead salmon becoming food for the hatch of their eggs. A dead Rainbow Trout in the stream or taken home is still a dead salmon. There is things like this on the streams and just be prepared to handle it. Hatchery production is the key to our fishing, not stream production. This is a financial deal,not Mother Nature. 

[stealth423]

i have watch these guys snagging big browns an steelhead at berts dam 

the people who run fishermans park close thier eyes to it we need more encon around not more

rules for the honest fishman

[Traveling Circus]

4 hours ago, HB2 said:

Not saying it should be swept , but you can't manage a fishery by the few that abuse  it

Well said. 

[pvelyk]

These new regs are managing the fishery by the few who abuse it.  An extremely large majority of Lake guys are not leaving there dock every day or weekend with the thought I hope I can put a pounding on the steelhead.  The thought process is lets find those kings and have a great time.  The steelhead are a fallback or by-catch product for most during the season with the early spring being the exception.  I love the fight of a steelhead and my absolute my best memory of Lake O is catching my first one and its rise from 45 feet deep and jumping twice before the rigger popped., but having said that my boat is equipped and rigged to chase Kings first and foremost. The stream fishing is not being demolished by the lake guys.  Steelhead and brown trout fishing in streams are way more affected by guys putting up nets at night at Sandy Creek ,snaggers and guys taking more than there limit to go back to NYC or guys who just want eggs for their good time on the streams.  So to compensate for :these "few" abusers and what they are doing to a population of stream fished just penned in a small area waiting to be abused in numbers by these guys we are going to take fish away from the honest fisherman.  That is very much managing the fishery for the bad guys.  

 

Most of us talking about this, whether lake or trib fisherman are ethical anglers, but the poaching problem is not a lake issue its a trib issue and it is the biggest problem for the quality fishing experience in the tribs.  As the trib guys like to point out you have the numbers but that also has to do that the cost of entry to trib fishing is low compared to the lake.  That means a lot more numbers but some of those numbers lend themselves to the type of people making a quick buck on the cheap and lower morals groups of anglers.  Not all trib guys are the same, and the guys claiming to represent them only represent the much smaller group of ethical ones.

Edited April 12, 2019 by pvelyk

[TyeeTanic]

20 hours ago, GAMBLER said:

Its open year round on the Lake Ontario tribs. 

 

Well, that's part of the problem. We can't fish the tribs, except for literally the river mouth openings to the lake (think first 500 ft of river) for another 2 weeks.  The trout have been running up and down the tribs according to the counters.  So in 2 weeks we are catching nothing but drop backs ... the grand majority have spawned, and there is much less risk of catching a loaded hen.  Plus, unless I want one for the BBQ in the short term, most ethical fishers practice catch and release, and are pretty good about reviving fish, even if it takes 10 minutes.  Conditions normally are pretty good reviving fish, as the water is still super cold ... As you know, catching on the boat (which I do as well), we pull these fish from 40 - 80 ft down in cold water and bring them through the thermocline in a flash up to 75F water ... that has to lower survival rate.

 

I don't think it's fair to take away this amazing hobby from trib fishermen (in some cases it's a job, and certainly tackle shops benefit from it), as we have to be allow access to resources to all in the same likeness. Most people can't afford a boat, or a charter. It's crazy to think the gov't will stop trib fishing and let the lake fishing continue ... there will be a mini-revolution on government and lake fishermen alike.  It's got to be fair. 

 

There's cheating on tribs, and it pisses me off to. There's also people that take advantage on the lake (take more than there quota, fish with more lines than their allowed to). It all comes down to respecting regulations and for those that don't we need adequate enforcement.

 

So let me ask ... are the regs the problem (maybe, I'd stop trib fishing until end of April to give the fish a chance to spawn), or does the enforcement need to be beefed up?

[rolmops]

More enforcement of current regulations will be more effective than more regulations. I really believe that a few strategically placed trail cams will help catch the bad guys.


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[rolmops]

More enforcement of current regulations will be more effective than more regulations. I really believe that a few strategically placed trail cams will help catch the bad guys.


Sent from my iPhone using Lake Ontario United mobile app

[GAMBLER]

3 hours ago, TyeeTanic said:

 

Well, that's part of the problem. We can't fish the tribs, except for literally the river mouth openings to the lake (think first 500 ft of river) for another 2 weeks.  The trout have been running up and down the tribs according to the counters.  So in 2 weeks we are catching nothing but drop backs ... the grand majority have spawned, and there is much less risk of catching a loaded hen.  Plus, unless I want one for the BBQ in the short term, most ethical fishers practice catch and release, and are pretty good about reviving fish, even if it takes 10 minutes.  Conditions normally are pretty good reviving fish, as the water is still super cold ... As you know, catching on the boat (which I do as well), we pull these fish from 40 - 80 ft down in cold water and bring them through the thermocline in a flash up to 75F water ... that has to lower survival rate.

 

I don't think it's fair to take away this amazing hobby from trib fishermen (in some cases it's a job, and certainly tackle shops benefit from it), as we have to be allow access to resources to all in the same likeness. Most people can't afford a boat, or a charter. It's crazy to think the gov't will stop trib fishing and let the lake fishing continue ... there will be a mini-revolution on government and lake fishermen alike.  It's got to be fair. 

 

There's cheating on tribs, and it pisses me off to. There's also people that take advantage on the lake (take more than there quota, fish with more lines than their allowed to). It all comes down to respecting regulations and for those that don't we need adequate enforcement.

 

So let me ask ... are the regs the problem (maybe, I'd stop trib fishing until end of April to give the fish a chance to spawn), or does the enforcement need to be beefed up?

NY will never close the tribs.  They used to manage this fishery as a put and take fishery.  They are slowly getting away from that.  The fishery is a huge money maker for the state. 

 

As for the guys that think a "few" are abusing it, spend some time during the brown runs in the fall at Burt, Oak Orchard, Sandy, ect and you will see a lot more than a "few" snaggers.  in my very limited time I spend on the tribs I see way too much of it happening.  When bubba from the back woods comes stolling down the middle of the creek with a snagging rod with 10z of weight, you know what he is up to. The salmon season brings the worst out in the tribs and the illegal clowns kill a lot of early run steelhead and browns during their visit illegally.  The solution to the issue needs to be address by the DEC before they manage the steelhead fishery for the tribs only.  If they did more about the issue I would have no problem with the changes.  Unfortunately for us fishermen, deer hunting takes a front seat once the season opens. 

[Traveling Circus]

This discussion comes up every year or every other year........ "lake guys" throw mud at the "stream guys" and stream guys throw mud back and it never goes anywhere except to divide the community. Enforce the rules that are in place, and there would be less to complain about. 

[GAMBLER]

6 minutes ago, Traveling Circus said:

Enforce the rules that are in place, and there would be less to complain about. 

Correct.  All of us sportsmen need to be on a united front and push the DEC to enforce the rules in place.  There needs to be a bigger presence by ALL anglers in pen rearing and the state of the lake meetings.

[GAMBLER]

1 hour ago, Traveling Circus said:

This discussion comes up every year or every other year........ "lake guys" throw mud at the "stream guys" and stream guys throw mud back and it never goes anywhere except to divide the community. Enforce the rules that are in place, and there would be less to complain about. 

The mud slinging towards the trib guys is towards the Non-sportsmen (snaggers, lifters, egg strippers, trespassers, ect.) in the group yet some respectable trib guys defend the entire group.  I'm shocked they have not been on this thread yet..... 

[HB2]

In my opinion over the last many years with much discussion on this subject , my summation on this is that it is a power struggle . 

[GAMBLER]

23 minutes ago, HB2 said:

In my opinion over the last many years with much discussion on this subject , my summation on this is that it is a power struggle . 

For some it may be a power struggle.  For me it is about what is best for the fishery.  Having trout stuffed in the tribs as easy pickings and very little enforcement is an issue.  Enforce the laws on the books and clean up the tribs and I have zero issues with changing the regulations to have more fish in the system.  Then again, isn't this fishery a put and take fishery? 

[weave]

Even if the season closed during Fall through Spring the snaggers and poachers would still get their share. How many DEC officers are in each region?  And how many great lakes tribs are in each region?  Let alone other waterways and woodlands.  It's not possible for the state to give the tribs enough priority to police this effectively.

 

[Sk8man]

In view of all that has been said here we are left with the fact that the illegal activity on the tribs is an enforcement issue Staffing of officers and seasonal priorities combined with a lack of effective penalties once the perpetrators are caught. Judges and perhaps prosecutors do not seem to either realize or perhaps fully appreciate the end results of this activity on the fishery. It seems much like divorce proceedings mixed in with the arraignment of serious offenders where the judge may be thinking "why am I dealing with this "mickey mouse" stuff ((e.g. fish or game violations) when I have these more serious matters to contend with and limited time (case backlogs etc.) to deal with. It seems that even when these violations are very egregious and highly publicized the people committing them are let off with a slap on the wrist at best and especially in light of the caviar prices  in NYC or other markets.....a small fine is nothing to them and part of "doing business". As with the divorce court situation there should be a special court set up to deal with these commonly occurring situations taking them out of the domain of the regular court system  and with special sanctions, and a central court location in the middle of the state requiring presence and travel to it by the perpetrators, forfeiture of all property involved in the offense if convicted including vehicles etc. as can occur in drug situations, and across the board enforcement with no plea bargaining allowed. Just a thought

Edited April 13, 2019 by Sk8man

[Trouthunter]

7 minutes ago, Sk8man said:

In view of all that has been said here we are left with the fact that the illegal activity on the tribs is an enforcement issue Staffing of officers and seasonal priorities combined with a lack of effective penalties once the perpetrators are caught. Judges and perhaps prosecutors do not seem to either realize or perhaps fully appreciate the end results of this activity on the fishery. It seems much like divorce proceedings mixed in with the arraignment of serious offenders where the judge may be thinking "why am I dealing with this "mickey mouse" stuff ((e.g. fish or game violations) when I have these more serious matters to contend with and limited time (case backlogs etc.) to deal with. It seems that even when these violations are very egregious and highly publicized the people committing them are let off with a slap on the wrist at best and especially in light of the caviar prices  in NYC or other markets.....a small fine is nothing to them and part of "doing business". As with the divorce court situation there should be a special court set up to deal with these commonly occurring situations taking them out of the domain of the regular court system  and with special sanctions, and a central court location in the middle of the state requiring presence and travel to it by the perpetrators, forfeiture of all property involved in the offense if convicted including vehicles etc. as can occur in drug situations, and across the board enforcement with no plea bargaining allowed. Just a thought

You are right on this **** has to stop we need all fishermen to stand up & report this illegal activity now

[Gator]

The harder you have to work for something, the more you value it. Value equates to respect. Conversely, when something is easy, you tend to take it for granted. Unfortunately, access to fish in streams is easy, and it brings out a certain breed that you don't see when the juice requires more squeeze. Let me be clear though - this is IMHO a minority of trib anglers.

 

Enforcement is part of the equation, but changing the culture is a bigger part, and it doesn't pay immediate dividends. Discussions like this help,

 

 

Edited April 13, 2019 by Gator

[Sk8man]

I guess I was focused on the "egg snatchers" in particular. There are obviously many different motivations for the activity and breaking laws or regulations but with the caviar situation greed is at the basis of it and as long as there is financial benefit deriving from the activity and perhaps for some just the motive of "personal power over the system" by breaking the laws the cultural change aspect will not occur.The "rewarding" aspects need to be removed from the equation These behaviors take on their own life once "reward" of some type occurs and these folks aren't going to respond to the things that law abiding folks do. This is also true of many gun issues when criminals and legitimate gun owners are compared.

Edited April 13, 2019 by Sk8man

[Traveling Circus]

9 hours ago, Gator said:

Discussions like this help,

I respectfully disagree. The snaggers, caviar collectors,  and egg strippers aren't the guys reading this thread, and if they do it won't have any impact on them. Enforcement will have an impact. 

 

Threads like this divide the guys that should be united. 

 

 

[HB2]

Is catching a fish and keeping it for the eggs illegal ?  The way I see it , when I catch a fish and it is of the legal size , it is mine to do with as I please . Now discarding it steam side is another story. If I want to bring it home and feed my cat , it my business.   

 

All of us that fish the tribs are well aware of what can go on down there . I personally have yelled at guys more than once for bad behavior . We don't condone it , but what the hell do you want us to do about it ?  Some of the lake guys want to shut the tribs down . Shortsighted and selfish . 

 

If someone could wave a magic wand and make all the bad trib stuff going away , how much better will the lake fishing be ? I see guys with boat loads of fish . Bubba ain't hurtin the lake fishing one bit . 

 

The original question on this thread was why the reg  change . Yankee said it was Bull and I asked why . GAMBLER said to appease the trib guys . 

 

So if it goes through , a,three man charter with captain and mate  can keep 10 steelhead . What , that's not enough ? And maybe instead of a 7# average , they are 10 .

 

With  what was said at the state of the lake and what is going on with the pens , it's a power struggle IMO.  

Edited April 13, 2019 by HB2

[Gill-T]

Lake guys don’t want to shut tribs down, as most of us lake guys ARE trib guys as well. The issue with the taking of eggs and leaving the carcass breaks the laws governing “wanton waste”....never mind the lack of morality of the act. 

[whaler1]

Ding Ding Ding we have a winner. Dead on Mike


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[Gator]

13 hours ago, Traveling Circus said:

I respectfully disagree. The snaggers, caviar collectors,  and egg strippers aren't the guys reading this thread, and if they do it won't have any impact on them. Enforcement will have an impact. 

 

Threads like this divide the guys that should be united. 

 

 

You may be right. I hadn't thought of it in that way. I guess the class of real sportsmen on this site produces a bit of internet reverb. We might have different approaches to the problem, but we're rarely the cause of it. Good point.

[Kingfisher06]

When I was 13-14 years old I used to wear sweat pants and sneakers and run the streams with a spiked baseball bat until I couldn't feel my feet. Not pertinent to the discussion, but wanted to get that off my chest. Already feel better, should have confessed that 24 years sooner.

[jimski2]

The premise of “catch and release” is good for the fishery will result in a why stock the fish in the first place? Resolve yourself that the fish keepers help pay for the stocking program.


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