Dead Steelhead at Burt Dam

[AnglingAddict]

Aside from discarding a carcass streamside which is illegal - how is it any worse than the guys who fillet em up (lake or tribs), puts them in the freezer and then throws it out a year later after it becomes freezer burned?

Edited April 14, 2019 by AnglingAddict

[Kingfisher06]

3 minutes ago, AnglingAddict said:

Aside from discarding a carcass streamside which is illegal - how is it any worse than the guys who fillet em up (lake or tribs), puts them in the freezer and then throws it out a year later after it becomes freezer burned?

 

It's not. It boils down to ones own conscious. You either have a conscious that wasting game hurts or you don't. I have thrown out meat gone bad and it sucks. I've had goldeneye in the freezer for years. Now I just don't hunt them even after doing a 90% pork 10% goldeneye sausage that sucked. I don't like eating stream browns, but will eat one a year for eggs. If I can massage eggs from a brown and release it, I'll do that. Once someone takes possession of a fish, brings it home, I feel it is their business-once you start imposing yourself upon that, it is too slippery a slope in my opinion. Tying up eggs for bait seems like proper sportsman etiquette-akin to using antlers from a previous buck harvest to rattle in next years. Regulating away the use of real eggs as bait or real antlers as a game call takes too much away from the activity if you ask me.   

[GAMBLER]

Is catching a fish and keeping it for the eggs illegal ?  The way I see it , when I catch a fish and it is of the legal size , it is mine to do with as I please . Now discarding it steam side is another story. If I want to bring it home and feed my cat , it my business.   
 
All of us that fish the tribs are well aware of what can go on down there . I personally have yelled at guys more than once for bad behavior . We don't condone it , but what the hell do you want us to do about it ?  Some of the lake guys want to shut the tribs down . Shortsighted and selfish . 
 
If someone could wave a magic wand and make all the bad trib stuff going away , how much better will the lake fishing be ? I see guys with boat loads of fish . Bubba ain't hurtin the lake fishing one bit . 
 
The original question on this thread was why the reg  change . Yankee said it was Bull and I asked why . GAMBLER said to appease the trib guys . 
 
So if it goes through , a,three man charter with captain and mate  can keep 10 steelhead . What , that's not enough ? And maybe instead of a 7# average , they are 10 .
 
With  what was said at the state of the lake and what is going on with the pens , it's a power struggle IMO.  

I do agree that some people are having a power struggle issue with these regs. When a small group of trib guys pushes the DEC to change the regs for their own sake, it pisses people off. You also have to look at things from a charter captains point of view. Every time creel limits are reduced, it has the possibility of affecting their business (that most depend on as their livelihood). There are some people that come to get a great day on the water and bring some fish home for some meals. These charter clients are making one trip to Lake O and getting their fish in one shot. It is not like myself that wants a meal and keeps one for the grill when I am ready to have a meal. These new steelhead regs do not affect me much since I do not fish them often. Last season I only caught 18 steelhead over the entire season. I don’t care if a guy keeps a steelhead and uses the eggs to make egg sacks. That is perfectly legal and ethical. Stripping eggs and stressing the fish, slitting their belly’s and discarding the carcasses stream side is what burns my a$$. You may think I am against trib guy but I am not. I have spent many hours on the tribs in the last 25 years. These discussions should not divide any of us. This photo should piss sportsmen off and want to push the DEC to do more about these issues that affect us all. With the pen projects, most projects want to keep the steelhead. Also trib anglers participation is VERY VERY low in the pen projects. The sandy project we get a couple of guys and that’s great. These pen projects benefit everyone and participation is lower than it should be. No one has trouble going out and using the fishery but when it comes time to give a little time, donations, etc, a small group comes forward to help.


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[Sk8man]

A respectful discussion of different opinions and perspectives never hurts anyone and a thread of this nature can benefit everyone if they have an open mind, tolerance for differences, and an openness to new information. This is the place to do it. Hopefully we will all learn a little from it in the process. Regardless of opinion or whether trib or troller we are all in this together and hopefully for the betterment of the sport.

[HB2]

Yes , I know exactly what you mean about guys pressuring the DEC to change regs for their own benefit .  I've lived that and took a lot of crap  for it . 

 

I look at it from all parties viewpoint , not just the captain's . There are more people economically tied to this fishery besides them .  

 

Love the fact that DEC now has formed focus groups from both trib and lake and that a " State of the Salmon river " meeting will be had . An equal seat at the table so to speak . A long  time coming IMO. 

 

Didn't some guy on here say it might be nice to reach out to the trib guys ? 

Thought I read that on here . 

 

This site use to have a vibrant trib section . Rarely a post anymore . Maybe because when someone does , they get jumped on for naming a trib or to light a tippet, or using eggs ,or the snagging card gets played ,and on and on . So why would they show up . 

[GAMBLER]

Yes , I know exactly what you mean about guys pressuring the DEC to change regs for their own benefit .  I've lived that and took a lot of crap  for it . 
 
I look at it from all parties viewpoint , not just the captain's . There are more people economically tied to this fishery besides them .  
 
Love the fact that DEC now has formed focus groups from both trib and lake and that a " State of the Salmon river " meeting will be had . An equal seat at the table so to speak . A long  time coming IMO. 
 
Didn't some guy on here say it might be nice to reach out to the trib guys ? 
Thought I read that on here . 
 
This site use to have a vibrant trib section . Rarely a post anymore . Maybe because when someone does , they get jumped on for naming a trib or to light a tippet, or using eggs ,or the snagging card gets played ,and on and on . So why would they show up . 

Reaching out to the trib guys for pen rearing? If that is what you are talking about, Dave Agness has gotten involved in the pen rearing to bring more trib guys in. The sandy project we have not seen it (one or two new guys) but our project has a great volunteer base compared to other projects. I don’t know if those efforts were focused elsewhere or not. I can’t speak for the other projects. Like you, I look at it from all sides. I trib fish on occasion, lake fish and have worked for charter captains over the years. The trib section has rules about naming small tribs. It is LOU policy. If guys can’t follow the rules, they should be called out.


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[BillM]

I'd probably be more up in arms if these fish actually had any spawning water to get to, but they don't especially on the south shore of Lake O.   I don't like seeing zipped fish in the river either, take the fish home and do what you want with it.   I was down at Burt years ago and took some eggs from a female chinook that was spewing them as soon as she was out of the water.  I took some eggs and released her.  As I was walking back up to my vehicle I got a visit from the CO and a ticket.  Apparently I wasn't allowed to take the eggs without keeping the fish.  Which I find really odd as those eggs just should have counted towards my possession limit for the day.  CO even told me just to toss the fish in the dumpster when I was leaving and all would have been legal.   Ridiculous if you ask me.  

[TyeeTanic]

On ‎4‎/‎12‎/‎2019 at 4:11 PM, Traveling Circus said:

This discussion comes up every year or every other year........ "lake guys" throw mud at the "stream guys" and stream guys throw mud back and it never goes anywhere except to divide the community. Enforce the rules that are in place, and there would be less to complain about. 

Exactly ... maybe the rules could be optimized a bit, but none of that helps if they don't enforce the rules.

[HB2]

I was talking to a guy I was working with and see once in a while this fall . Told me he and his younger daughter had landed a few salmon out of the local stream and showed me a picture . I asked him what he caught it on ( I pretty much knew ) he said " we snagged them , those fish don't bite once they get in the stream " . I told him I had been doing well the last few years on skein . He did  not believe me and told me I was full of it . I kept on him about it , showed  pics and explained exactly what I do . 

Told him I would take him sometime also . I think I may have convinced him but I don't know . 

 

The DEC said they were aware of the bad trib stuff and were going to address it by" education " . Now ,I don't know what that means,but in the above case , maybe they have a point . 

 

I think the mindset needs to change . 

 

But there are those that just like to break the law . That's where the enforcement comes in . Then , swing the hammer hard . 

 

[GAMBLER]

2 minutes ago, HB2 said:

I was talking to a guy I was working with and see once in a while this fall . Told me he and his younger daughter had landed a few salmon out of the local stream and showed me a picture . I asked him what he caught it on ( I pretty much knew ) he said " we snagged them , those fish don't bite once they get in the stream " . I told him I had been doing well the last few years on skein . He did  not believe me and told me I was full of it . I kept on him about it , showed  pics and explained exactly what I do . 

Told him I would take him sometime also . I think I may have convinced him but I don't know . 

 

The DEC said they were aware of the bad trib stuff and were going to address it by" education " . Now ,I don't know what that means,but in the above case , maybe they have a point . 

 

I think the mindset needs to change . 

 

But there are those that just like to break the law . That's where the enforcement comes in . Then , swing the hammer hard . 

 

Education is a great starting point.  The biggest issues are lack of enforcement, courts throwing these tickets out and laughable fines.  If the DEC could make strides on those three things, it would make a big difference.  If guys were getting tickets, the violations stuck and they had to pay a real fine, they might think twice. 

[AnglingAddict]

The high wall in Oswego is a great example from an education perspective  - 5 years ago it was lined up with guys fishing wicked long leaders and "walking the wall" in an attempt to line kings - fast forward to the past 3 years - the liners have been pushed out by a pack of guys all fishing skein under floats.  Many of the local liners converted as well because once they bite - they are much easier to control and land...great action and a lot of biters because they aren't constantly having a pound of lead land on their heads...

[HB2]

56 minutes ago, AnglingAddict said:

The high wall in Oswego is a great example from an education perspective  - 5 years ago it was lined up with guys fishing wicked long leaders and "walking the wall" in an attempt to line kings - fast forward to the past 3 years - the liners have been pushed out by a pack of guys all fishing skein under floats.  Many of the local liners converted as well because once they bite - they are much easier to control and land...great action and a lot of biters because they aren't constantly having a pound of lead land on their heads...

See Gambler , it's getting better . 

[GAMBLER]

6 minutes ago, HB2 said:

See Gambler , it's getting better . 

Every clown converted is a plus.  If they would just realize learning to fish tribs the right way, they would learn it is easier and more fun. Although, they would be stripping eggs and skeins to have more bait.....

[jimski2]

In Alaska possession of eggs is a violation if they are found in your person or in your boat. This will be the next step to limit access to the stream fishery.


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[Gill-T]

?? I see fishing shows in Alaska where they are using skein all the time on the tele.  

[TyeeTanic]

On ‎4‎/‎14‎/‎2019 at 7:50 AM, AnglingAddict said:

Aside from discarding a carcass streamside which is illegal - how is it any worse than the guys who fillet em up (lake or tribs), puts them in the freezer and then throws it out a year later after it becomes freezer burned?

 

I get your point, and probably as bad as the amount of stuff we buy in general, only to have it thrown away and end up polluting our rivers and lands.  In the end, people will either be conscious and mindful of their actions or not.  But rules should not be broken.

[jimski2]

The
Mountain lakes I Alaska are formed from snow and glacier melt. They are nutrient free unlike our farm streams and lakes. The carcasses of the dead sockeyes are the feed for the next generation. The eggs from the chinook, coho, pinks and dog salmon are feed for the Steelhead, dolly varden trout and others. I watched the young trout leap out of the water and eat
Mosquitoes .


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[King Davy]

Just saw this post. Like many have said, it’s too bad we continue to banter back and forth between Lake

and Trib anglers….when we all want the same thing a healthy fishery that provides opportunity.

So I sit on these focus group meetings as a stakeholder representing trib fishing interest.

Here are the facts.

1)      Trib fishermen asked for a 25 inch limit on steelhead for the lake and tribs. We never asked for a creel reduction on the lake. WHY? DEC data from 1983 through spring of 2018 states that 98% of the Spawning steelhead returning to the Salmon river that are spawned are 25 inches and over on average. Furthermore after the die off of adult Steelhead in 2014, we’ve been fishing for smaller fish, and while we gained numbers back after four years of stocking since the die off, we have always wanted a trophy fishery for Steelhead. And Reelexcite (because we sat on the stakleholders meeting together then as well. ) can tell you that in 2004 when the tribs went to a 1 steelhead limit we sought a 25 inch limit way back then. So this is nothing new ….we’ve been working on this size change now for 16 years.

2)      Lake Ontario is now a Brown Trout Destination Fishery in the tribs. People who used to go to very expensive places for big browns come here instead. Last Sunday I watched a film at a festival on sea run Browns in Iceland. The anglers caching these nice sea run fish. They are no bigger, and many times smaller than our LO browns. We have a world class Brown trout fishery. So we sought a reduction on the tribs from 3 to 1 brown trout per angler per day. DEC pushed us to state …people will stop coming if the creel is reduced. We produced data that showed the angler use of the tribs increased 10 fold after the Steelhead adjustment from 3 to 1 in the tribs. WHY? Because more people came simply because there would be more “opportunity” to fish to fish if not as many were being carted off.

3)      First Pass DEC came back with 25 “ in the tribs, and increasing the size in the lake to 23”.

4)      Second Pass DEC came back with staying at 21 inches but dropping the creel from 3 to 2.

Here is some of the rationalization: Steelhead can be fished for 12 months 365 days a year. They are available to either a lake or trib angler every day no matter what the season month or weather. Brown trout are a close second. They may have a slight reprieve after spawning and transitioning back to the lake in the winter before the boating season begins. Obviously Salmon and Lake trout have some time to be rested from fishermen. Non spawning salmon aren’t’ being fished for in the open waters of Lake Ontario by large number of anglers from Oct through the following March most years around here. Lake trout are pursued in the Niagara River longer, but as spawners in the lake proper most are left alone.

I’m only guessing, but I’ll assume DEC made this Reg to manage this fishery for the full 12 months knowing that Steelhead can be fished for as often as they can be and or are.

 

DEC’s Bill Pearce who was in charge of getting this fishery off the ground back in 1968, had an architected plan, and that was the model DEC was following. Pacific Salmon, Lake Trout, and Brown trout would be the staple fish for the lake and Steelhead would be icing on the cake. Steelhead would be the Staple fish for the rivers, while Pacific Salmon, and Brown trout would be icing on the cake. I believe DEC in their management meetings reviewed these initiatives. Thus their SOTL proclamation, they were managing the lake for King Salmon, and the Rivers for Steelhead. And Brown trout along with Steelhead, and Pacific Salmon would have a play in both environments.

McCloud River Steelhead were brought to Lake Ontario and the upper lakes back in the 1880’s. Many of you might not realize this, but remnants of these planting were being caught in places like the Salmon River back in the 50’s and 60’s before this program ever started in 68. Even more prevalent in the North shore rivers all these years and also in the upper lakes.

There are many problems on both fronts. Illegal activity is an uphill battle when the highest fine one can get is $250. DEC does not create the penalties for fishing violations. We as sportsmen have to take that up with our elected officials. And Our Judges. I’ve spent the last 20 years in Alaska, and Western fisheries. You do these things there, you go to jail, get fined Thousands of dollars, and lose you equipment car and boat.

Pen rearing: Yes we have a trib group doing the Pens at the Oak for Steelhead. We have some folks who’ve volunteered at Sandy. We’ve offered help at the Genny, and the group there has decided to stick with the folks they have.  We have another group helping out in Niagara County as well.

BUT….all have to understand, the LO fishery especially this time of year is not the only game in town. If you think trib fishermen are sitting on their hands this time of year you are sorely mistaken. There is a dozen stocking events in and around region 8 alone for inland streams and they are involved in all of those.  There has been tree planting on several in land streams, tree trimming, and stream cleanups. The folks I represent participate in all of those at the very same time as the Pen programs. However, we should be involved with the pens as well, as many of us enjoy fishing the LO tribs.

We have a 12 month a year fishery. It’s been documented for several years now that the usage is higher on the tribs than the lake. For many reasons, that doesn’t make one more important than the other, but it does state, we have to focus on managing this fishery for opportunity for all.

I still fish the lake, the tribs and am fortunate to fish some pretty exotic places, and at the end of the day, I’m happiest being in my own back yard either on LO, it’s tribs or the many beautiful streams inland, to the ADK, and the Catskills. We have it all here. For LO, we simply have to work together. Is there going to be pain to bare sometimes, absolutely, but we are now in the 51^st year of this marvelous fishery, and it’s still the best one in the US. I hope we can end this unrest and all focus on the bigger picture. This isn’t for any one special interest group, this fishery is for everybody no matter where they fish….and it has to be managed that way.

 

 

 

[HB2]

Excellent. 

 

[Gill-T]

Good testament to the anglers of LOU that this thread went this long with so many views..........all because someone saw a dead fish. Kudos gents!

[Sk8man]

3 hours ago, King Davy said:

 We have it all here. For LO, we simply have to work together. Is there going to be pain to bare sometimes, absolutely, but we are now in the 51^st year of this marvelous fishery, and it’s still the best one in the US. I hope we can end this unrest and all focus on the bigger picture. This isn’t for any one special interest group, this fishery is for everybody no matter where they fish….and it has to be managed that way.

 

 

 

 

 

Amen.

[King Davy]

While putting the Pens together at the Oak, an ECO stopped by to Chat. As usually happens we talked about the difficulty in catching and then having a Judge convict the ticketed offender. The ECO also shared a story about a Charter Boat Captain he ticketed for fishing violations....stating the problem is not only on the tribs. BUT I didn't come away from that conversation that ALL Charter Boat Captains are law breakers. If we REALLY want to fix this.....stop generalizing or profiling people just because of the method they fish, or where they choose to fish when a law is broken in either environment. 

[GAMBLER]

1 hour ago, King Davy said:

While putting the Pens together at the Oak, an ECO stopped by to Chat. As usually happens we talked about the difficulty in catching and then having a Judge convict the ticketed offender. The ECO also shared a story about a Charter Boat Captain he ticketed for fishing violations....stating the problem is not only on the tribs. BUT I didn't come away from that conversation that ALL Charter Boat Captains are law breakers. If we REALLY want to fix this.....stop generalizing or profiling people just because of the method they fish, or where they choose to fish when a law is broken in either environment. 

No one is saying all trib guys are unethical snaggers Dave.  I know tons of respectable trib anglers and have fished with some of them.  It is the bad apples that I hate and b*tch about (both land and boat).  Here is a question you might be able to answer Dave:  How has TU not used its pull to get the state to do more about the issues on  the LO tribs? 

[BSmaster]

How about we put a cherry on that icing (both stream and lake) and get us some Atlantics (which is indigenous).

[GAMBLER]

2 minutes ago, BSmaster said:

How about we put a cherry on that icing (both stream and lake) and get us some Atlantics (which is indigenous).

They do not survive well with alewife as the main forage.  The original strains are gone and the ones they stock are doing ok but not great.  The Canadians stock 600,000 a year and get less than 20 returning adults a year.  That would be wonderful for everyone...….