Lack of small kings

[Fat Trout]

While natural reproduction is nice you dont want to have so much that you cant manage the fishery. I had read about the Huron crash. Natural reproduction stream quality was so good it ramped up to unsustainable levels and crashed the fishery.

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[Gill-T]

Huron was a plankton problem. The overstocking/ too much natural reproduction problem only sped up an inevitable crash. 

[Sk8man]

Two skippys today at Sodus...they were out in 306 ft of water Looked very healthy.

[MikeyP]

We caught skippys last week in Oswego which were mixed in with some matures. Didn't catch any before that though. As far as bait.....we didn't see nearly as much this year.

Edited August 2, 2019 by MikeyP

[Fat Trout]

Huron was a plankton problem. The overstocking/ too much natural reproduction problem only sped up an inevitable crash. 

Inevitable true but the estimated natural reproduction numbers and rate of increase were astounding. I attributed that to the more northern location of streams, presumably lower stream temps at key times of the year. Regardless....natural reproduction is both a blessing and a curse depending on the prey fish populations. Going from zero one year to bumper crop the next makes it hard to manage

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[Low Baller]

Two skippys today at Sodus...they were out in 306 ft of water[emoji2] Looked very healthy.

Lol

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[cabezon99]

On 7/30/2019 at 2:46 PM, GAMBLER said:

So far this season, the salmon fishing has been awesome.  My only concern is the lack of kings under 15lbs.  We have only caught a few small kings this season so far.  Usually the number of small kings out numbers the numbers of mature fish.  It has been backwards this year.  Anyone else seeing this?  I'm wondering if we are finally seeing the stocking cuts?

Ran into a couple of small kings yesterday West of Olcott in 180 FOW.  Both will live to fight another day, never left the water.

  

[rdebadts]

I caught a pile of small kings in May out of Olcott, and no more than a handful since. It’s quite unusual to not catch all classes of fish in June and July. I am a bit worried about next year’s king fishing. Fortunately the lake is so diverse that there will be something to catch regardless.


The Fishin’ Physician Assistant

[Yankee Troller]

Well, we finally had to leave the inside waters with last weeks flip. Saturday we tossed back 4 skippers and cut up about 8 silver 2yr olds. I'd say the lack of immature fish in everyone's catches is from the amount of mature fish that have been close to shore.

[GAMBLER]

Well, we finally had to leave the inside waters with last weeks flip. Saturday we tossed back 4 skippers and cut up about 8 silver 2yr olds. I'd say the lack of immature fish in everyone's catches is from the amount of mature fish that have been close to shore.

I hope you are right!


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[rolmops]

What tribs are good enough for natural reproduction in your opinion?

 

 

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It starts well before a  hatchery, goes through 2 parks and ends in a bay. Large areas have had the silt removed about 10 years ago and gravel beds have been improved. we catch king salmon there in fall at some holes of its 79 mile length. Plenty of trees and holes along the way and rumor has it that atlantic salmon also successfully spawn there. That's enough info.

 

Edited August 19, 2019 by rolmops

[Absolut40]

Bob Songin's last report he gave a good theory based on his experience for the lack of smaller fish. It made sense to me.

[brucehookedup]

We do not need to clip fish. If they (they) find out how many naturals there is there will be more cuts. Then IF we have have a bad year of nat's were screwed for 3 to 4 years. This is nothing new, let it happen till we see a major issue. I have seen enough junior fish this year to not be worried. No way as many as the past, but these fish are not like salmon in the past, they are changing their habits.

[jimski2]

If your desire is smaller fish will, return to stocking Coho salmon. They were great game and stream and breakwater fishing was mores successful for younger fishing that can not afford a charter fishing trip.

 

 

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[Yankee Troller]

13 hours ago, GAMBLER said:

I hope you are right!


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I didn't say we're in the clear, but that's typically where these fish hang.

[Kinghunter]

Here on the Ontario side we've been documenting naturalized Chinook for at least 10 years.  Most of the north shore rivers and creeks get a run of salmon; some of them produce naturals.  Like in the movie Jurrasic Park................."if it can...mother nature will find a way".  This has been happening for 100's of years that non-native rainbow, brown, coho, Chinook, pink and even altlantic salmon have been stocked into Lake Ontario.  During our trout opener in April, most years I catch small Chinook getting ready to leave the river.  Up in Lake Huron there have been naturalized runs of chinook for at least 30 years; there are self-sustaining runs up rivers that have never been stocked.  If there is a draw-back to naturalized Chinook; I believe the average size over time will be smaller as the species adjusts to its birth river and the lake which have propogated them.  Nature will always try to balance in some way.

 

A good example of this is the Nottawasaga River flowing into Georgian Bay, the run of Chinook now starts as early as early August with fish in the 6 to 12 pound range being matures.  Very few in the 15 to 20 pound range.  They run up all the tributaries without any dams, right into the headwaters which are always cold, clean and flowing; I believe the size of these salmon have become naturalized based on the native creek they were born in.  Some of the creeks are 5 feet across; nature can't fit a 20 pound fish too easily in this water body, but it can fit many 8 to 10 pound ones!

 

To be honest on the Canadian side and in the Western Basin of Lake Ontario the adult Chinook fishery has been dismal.  We've been plagued with very cold water all summer; little bait and a lot fewer adults.  I think your side of the lake has benefitted from this; they move where the bait and temperature is, as long as they are happy they have no reason to move until nature calls them to come back to spawn and pass.

[rdebadts]

King hunter, the fishing has been very far from abysmal anywhere on the south shore at any time this year.


The Fishin’ Physician Assistant

[RUNNIN REBEL]

King Hunter you are spot on here.  While the Canadian side is Documenting, studying, and has clipping King project (Port Credit-Ganaraska experiment study) ECT ECT ECT...…..  The USA side continues to discuss and hypothesize about predator/prey ratios and what is  happening  to our king sizes here and what actions to take or not take. With technically just over half the kings in Lake O  naturally produced,  The Canadian side is the Unofficial production grounds. The Naturals are protected in Canada every season with hefty fines and a culture of everyday sportsman and woman watching over this. Also not much if any bickering between Stream guy's and lake guy's. They are a united front, please google ONTARIO FEDERATION OF ANGLERS & HUNTERS. Over 100,000 members strong !!! Strength and $$$ & VOTES are in numbers.

 With over 700+ stream-rivers-creeks on Lake O,  over 400 are in Canada.      " Most of the north shore rivers and creeks get a run of salmon; some of them produce naturals"  AND   "They run up all the tributaries without any dams, right into the headwaters which are always cold, clean and flowing"   these  King Hunter statements sum it up.     

 Now  YES there is natural production on the US side but with a more of a "pay to play" combo free for all style on our waters .On the USA side here are just some example of the OVERWELMING majority of potential waters and their potential limitations to producing major Natural contributions consistently,  other than the proven Salmon river  Niagara river= Niagara Falls...  18 mile = Burt dam..     Oak Orchard = Dam...    Genesee River= Falls..   ECT  Heck most years we can only pen rear our salmon for just a few weeks because of the non conducive high water temps at some pen sites in early spring time.

 

More meetings/conference call discussions are taking place to come up with a plan/direction of this fishery.

I would like to start another topic and get everyones feed back on what we should recommend on King #'s for 2020 stocking numbers

1   stay status quo 1 more year (wait and see current data)

2   get some/certain % back

3   Restore most if not all of the -%20  & -%20

 

 

Jerry

RUNNIN REBEL

[Lucky13]

Looking at the 2018  one year old data, I would be surprised to even see a status quo maintenance plan.  I think we'll all see a little pain out of this one,   Not that what any of us "vote for" will matter a whole lot in the equation, it will be based on what the technical committee sees as acceptable risks.  2015 and prior are virtually gone, the great 2016 hatch has been heavily preyed down,  the small 2017 hatch is virtually gone, and 2018 is an even smaller number of fish, with a low total biomass.  The "hole" is not disappearing yet. 

 

I think the big limiting factors for natural reproduction on this side of the lake is lack of substrate, and temperatures that impact recruitment of the fish that are spawned.   

Edited August 21, 2019 by Lucky13

[HB2]

Albeit being inconsistent year to year  , I think there is more Nat reproduction on the south shore tribs than most think . 

 

On the west coast the fish have to swim sometimes hundreds of miles to their spawning grounds . In LO it could be in some cases ,  hundreds of feet . If the eggs hatch , they have a chance . 

 

I have been saying for years that  Jurassic park line . 

 

And there fish now aren't your father's Kings. 

[Sweet Caroline]

I’m for status quo until we have a couple years in a row of decent alewife production. The few times I’ve ventured past 400 fow this year I’ve caught both 1 and 2 year old salmon. There seems to be a good crop to support the next couple of years. Given the cool Spring we had this year and the delayed spawn we are at a real risk of having another year of poor production with the 2019 alewife. A cold winter or even a normal winter could be devastating to this years alewife crop as the fish likely will be younger and smaller than normal going in to this winter. 

 

 I see less risk in stocking a few less salmon possibly that the lake can sustain than stocking more. Worst case if there is miscalculation and we stock too less, instead of catching 10-20 salmon in a morning we catch 5-10 with a real chance at a 30 plus lb fish. It is also is likely that stocking less salmon won’t have a negative impact on catch rates at all if the bait population is lower. If salmon fishing is slow, lake trout will take a beating which will also have a positive impact on alewife. You would have a hard time convincing me that any increase in stocking right now is justifiable. 

 

My two cents

 

 

Edited August 22, 2019 by A-Lure-A

[Kinghunter]

You mentioned Lake Trout; really on our side of the lake these are not considered for sport by the vast number of 'salmon' fisherman.  They are rarely targeted, incidentally caught at a 'HUGE' expense to the forage base.  I never understood stocking a fish that could live 30+ years, most of it being sterile, eat a lot of bait, generally accumulate contaminates to the point where they are almost toxic, are really only 'good' sport on light tackle (not the type we use for salmon), don't really spawn naturally and seem to be heavier scarred with Lamprey marks than most of the other trout and salmon.  Reduce the numbers of Lake Trout stocking and alewife numbers will react; most likely to higher numbers.

[Capt Vince Pierleoni]

On 8/21/2019 at 10:33 AM, RUNNIN REBEL said:

King Hunter you are spot on here.  While the Canadian side is Documenting, studying, and has clipping King project (Port Credit-Ganaraska experiment study) ECT ECT ECT...…..  The USA side continues to discuss and hypothesize about predator/prey ratios and what is  happening  to our king sizes here and what actions to take or not take. With technically just over half the kings in Lake O  naturally produced,  The Canadian side is the Unofficial production grounds. The Naturals are protected in Canada every season with hefty fines and a culture of everyday sportsman and woman watching over this. Also not much if any bickering between Stream guy's and lake guy's. They are a united front, please google ONTARIO FEDERATION OF ANGLERS & HUNTERS. Over 100,000 members strong !!! Strength and $$$ & VOTES are in numbers.

 With over 700+ stream-rivers-creeks on Lake O,  over 400 are in Canada.      " Most of the north shore rivers and creeks get a run of salmon; some of them produce naturals"  AND   "They run up all the tributaries without any dams, right into the headwaters which are always cold, clean and flowing"   these  King Hunter statements sum it up.     

 Now  YES there is natural production on the US side but with a more of a "pay to play" combo free for all style on our waters .On the USA side here are just some example of the OVERWELMING majority of potential waters and their potential limitations to producing major Natural contributions consistently,  other than the proven Salmon river  Niagara river= Niagara Falls...  18 mile = Burt dam..     Oak Orchard = Dam...    Genesee River= Falls..   ECT  Heck most years we can only pen rear our salmon for just a few weeks because of the non conducive high water temps at some pen sites in early spring time.

 

More meetings/conference call discussions are taking place to come up with a plan/direction of this fishery.

I would like to start another topic and get everyones feed back on what we should recommend on King #'s for 2020 stocking numbers

1   stay status quo 1 more year (wait and see current data)

2   get some/certain % back

3   Restore most if not all of the -%20  & -%20

 

 

Jerry

RUNNIN REBEL

With the current relentless intelligent pressure on the Chinooks,(and Jerry you know I'm right) no cuts were ever necessary. Anglers are doing a fine job. In recent years we finally achieved a fishery somewhat in balance, the alewives were massively in surplus for decades. Alewives were routinely in jeopardy of die offs from cold winters or from spawning stress. The over populated alewives were skinny, and provided less nutrition. In recent years the engine has been more ideal with a bigger Salmon fishery, healthier individual alewives with better food value, and better natural reproduction of Perch, Walleye, and even Lake Trout(Alewives prey heavily on all of these species eggs/hatches). We have already seen in Lake Michigan that any miscalculations in predator/prey ratios are completely reversible--UNLESS you are pouring tons of long lived Lake Trout into the system. 

The real danger is allowing the alewife population to become top heavy(too few predators). They become sickly and prone to die offs. This is the real threat. My 2 cents is return to the original stocking number--as many ports do not realize Summer/Fall returns of the wonderful Naturalized Chinook Salmon. Most of what anglers enjoyed this year was a very strong natural class of 3 yr olds, and right now some areas are experiencing much denser returns. The fish at all ages look outstanding.

 

Edited August 23, 2019 by Capt Vince Pierleoni

[Lucky13]

Well, looking at Shrechstoff's graphs, the 2018 alewife class was both very small in numbers and small in size, both length and total biomass.  Also, as someone who was around when there were massive alewife dieoffs, I can remember 2 very small ones in the last 25 years, nothing even close to what we regularly experienced along shore in the 60's.  As to size of the overall population, they are only tracking 6 year classes, basically (I think)  because by the 7th year they are insignificant in the totals. While 2013 and 14 are expected to be nearly gone now, as they were the " hole" to begin with, how much of the 2015 hatch remains?  The majority of the large alewife preferred by Kings remaining out there are one year class , the 2016 hatch.  My mother always told me never to put all the eggs in one basket!

Edited August 23, 2019 by Lucky13

[Lucky13]

It occurs to me that I don't recall seeing the "bait paper" posted on this site ( I could be wrong, I could have missed it.)  But in case anyone has not seen this, here is the report that is on the Great Lake's Fishery Commission website, for the 2019 trawl survey.

http://www.glfc.org/pubs/lake_committees/ontario/2019_preliminary_status_of_Lake_Ontario_Alewife.pdf