Lake Michigan Giant kings this year!!!

[Sk8man]

Pacific Herring - http://www.adfg.alaska.gov/index.cfm?adfg=herring.main

 

Edited August 15, 2019 by Sk8man

[jerryriggin]

10 hours ago, Trouthunter said:

Our gene pool has been watered down need a new gene class of eggs from the pacific northwest the hatcheries are been taking anything for eggs for too many years now just look at the stats from the hatcheries

It's not genetics its food plain and simple. In Michigan we have not recoeved eggs from the northwest in years.

[Inthebox30lbs]

23 hours ago, Capt Vince Pierleoni said:

Actually many years here on Ontario big numbers of 2.5 yr olds mature due to excessive food. In the early 90s NYSDEC told us the slug of large Chinooks was due to "delayed maturity."  Accelerated maturity is due to abundant food source. Lets keep in mind that a Salmon populations entire purpose is to propagate and become food. Lake O is now a mature fishery with intense Chinook Salmon fishing pressure. Age 4 Chinooks have always been the exception, and these days even if an individual Salmon is destined to be  a 4yr old mature it most likely gets caught and harvested before that. There is no problem with that as more people around the lake are enjoying Salmon fishing than ever before. Healthy alewives and healthy Salmon have created a bigger fishery. 

Now, be careful what you wish for--if you dig into the Lake Michigan Salmon fishery it is more policy than biology. Alewives are on the upswing but instead of increasing Salmon plants they are cramming record numbers of Lake Trout into the Lake. If you dig into the realities of the Salmon fishery I don't think most would like what they find--and certainly wouldnt trade for our fishery. Yes, there are some giants being caught but the day to day action is spotty at best unless you want Lakers. Look no further than the largest Pro Tournament on Lake Michigan, The Ludington Offshore Classic. Only one team was able to catch 3 Salmon both days. The vast majority filled their remaining creel with Lake trout. When I talk to Captains over there they say its difficult to determine which client gets the ONE opportunity at a Salmon during their outing. 99% of the anglers over there would trade for our fishery in a heartbeat.        

Vince great response and we all know you certainly know your stuff.  I will disagree with you about numbers of the catch.  The Wisconsin side of the lake has not cut the stocking as much as Michigan has.  They have actually cut the browns which made no sense and pissed a ton off.  Catches of kings the last few years from Chicago to Big bay de noc in Northern Michigan from spring to fall have been epic.  Some charters have averaged 20-30 kings a trip Since May this year and the kicker was the abundance of bigger 25-30lb kings the last few years.  Not to mention the biggest cohos in recent memory and the continued world class steelhead fishery that takes place in NW Lake Michigan in the summer.  Alewife Numbers have risen.  The Michigan side of the lake is a totally different ball game.  It almost reminds me of some of Lake Ontario’s lull periods of years past on the eastern end when you captains have consistent fishing on the western end.  The Michigan side goes from no fish to all of a sudden tons of fish staging before they enter the rivers.  They always have there days late summer early fall.    The pen rearing has played a significant role in Lake Ontario as natural reproduction has.  From a numbers perspective I would hesitate to say that Lake Ontario trout and salmon catch is far superior than lake Michigan’s.  Overall kings, coho’s steelhead fishing is pretty solid out of a lot of Michigan’s ports.  There is no indication that this is going to change i the near future.

[Capt Vince Pierleoni]

57 minutes ago, Inthebox30lbs said:

Vince great response and we all know you certainly know your stuff.  I will disagree with you about numbers of the catch.  The Wisconsin side of the lake has not cut the stocking as much as Michigan has.  They have actually cut the browns which made no sense and pissed a ton off.  Catches of kings the last few years from Chicago to Big bay de noc in Northern Michigan from spring to fall have been epic.  Some charters have averaged 20-30 kings a trip Since May this year and the kicker was the abundance of bigger 25-30lb kings the last few years.  Not to mention the biggest cohos in recent memory and the continued world class steelhead fishery that takes place in NW Lake Michigan in the summer.  Alewife Numbers have risen.  The Michigan side of the lake is a totally different ball game.  It almost reminds me of some of Lake Ontario’s lull periods of years past on the eastern end when you captains have consistent fishing on the western end.  The Michigan side goes from no fish to all of a sudden tons of fish staging before they enter the rivers.  They always have there days late summer early fall.    The pen rearing has played a significant role in Lake Ontario as natural reproduction has.  From a numbers perspective I would hesitate to say that Lake Ontario trout and salmon catch is far superior than lake Michigan’s.  Overall kings, coho’s steelhead fishing is pretty solid out of a lot of Michigan’s ports.  There is no indication that this is going to change i the near future.

Trust me, I pull for Pacific Salmon abundance in all the Great Lakes. I've been listening to the "doom and gloom" predictions for 30 years. Meanwhile there are still Kings and Cohos present in all the Lakes. There's a big derby going on in Owen Sound right now==a place we were told would be dead and buried years ago. Great Lakes strain Kings are amazing, they are becoming more adaptive each passing year. The wild fish are special but they don't return to where all the boating access is, and some years there isn't enough wilds to support the angling pressure. Anglers crop the surplus, alewives bounce back. As an NYSDEC biologist once said, "alewives will be in Lake Ontario long after we are gone".

I had a client take a group out on a charter today on the west side of Lake Michigan. Despite it being prime time and a pre dawn start they landed 1 Laker, 1 Coho, and 1 King for a party of 5. Yes, Wisconsin has thrown the finger up to the Lake Trout agenda but reports like this have been very common once all the fish left the southern end in Spring. That Lake is under planted now Salmon wise, yet the Lake Trout go in by the millions.  

Edited August 16, 2019 by Capt Vince Pierleoni

[Sweet Caroline]

I’ll be an armchair quarterback here, but couldn’t the DEC use a “follow the hatch” stocking strategy? When Spring trawls  indicate a good alewife production, stock more kings the following Spring. When production is down, stock less. Life cycles of each species run fairly parallel. When the alewife are at maturity so would the kings. Of course, natural reproduction throws a twist in that approach but it is better then stocking the same amount regardless of prey availability. I suppose that is kind of what they are doing now with the recent stocking reductions to a certain extent so I give them credit for that. 

 

In a lot of these threads I read a lot of opinions, subjective numbers, and speculation being  treated as fact. “My fishfinder shows this”, “ my buddies are telling me that”, “ I’ve caught less of this or more of that” “the reason is because of this”. We can argue back and forth about Lake Michigan catch rates, but what does the creel data suggest? We can come up with theories about what is causing lower weights in salmon or maturity at different ages, but what is the objective data telling us? Is the data telling us that Lake Michigan salmon are indeed maturing later than Lake Ontario? If it is true that abundance of bait causes salmon to mature early, then when the lake was polluted with alewife in the 80’s wouldn’t the majority of mature salmon be 2 years then as well. I don’t think the data would suggest that which contradicts the idea that our salmon are maturing early because of more bait. Nobody can dispute that there were tons more bait in the 80s, early 90s and the majority of mature salmon were 3 year olds, not 2. I’ve read studies that say the opposite regarding maturity. When conditions are unfavorable, such as insufficient food source, individuals reproduce at an earlier age and smaller size to keep the gene pool going. 

 

It is too much of a coincidence that as Lake Michigan reduced salmon stocking the size of their salmon increased. There is some merit to what Captain Vince is saying about “watching what you wish for” and the larger size correlation to low catch rates. Are you willing to sacrifice lower catches for larger salmon? But why reinvent the wheel when we already have a test tube with Lake Michigan. What does their objective data show when they lowered stocking rates? How much did the creel increase/decrease, how did it affect the average size and age class? All information that should be available and taken into consideration for our Lake Ontario management. In a perfect world if there was always a perfect balance of predator/prey then size and catch rates would remain unchanged. The DEC certainly has their job cut out for them in trying to maintain that balance and I give them kudos for their efforts. 

 

My two cents

 

Edited August 16, 2019 by A-Lure-A

[Tyee II]

The increase in bait and therefore size of Salmon in Lake Michigan has a direct correlation to the water levels rising and a decline in Cormorant numbers. Those birds eat more bait than the Kings do. If we could reduce the number of stocked Lakers immediately we will be able to support more Salmon. Hopefully that is coming soon for us on Lake Michigan as it seems even the Indians realize the Lakers are destroying more desirable fisheries, like Whitefish and Chubs.

[GAMBLER]

The increase in bait and therefore size of Salmon in Lake Michigan has a direct correlation to the water levels rising and a decline in Cormorant numbers. Those birds eat more bait than the Kings do. If we could reduce the number of stocked Lakers immediately we will be able to support more Salmon. Hopefully that is coming soon for us on Lake Michigan as it seems even the Indians realize the Lakers are destroying more desirable fisheries, like Whitefish and Chubs.

Fishing lake trout alone will knock the population down some. C&R mortality can be pretty high. Keeping every lake trout allowed in your limit every trip isn’t a lot but it is helping. A lot of guys here in Lake Ontario refuse to fish them but will b*tch about them eating too many alewife!


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[Tyee II]

48 minutes ago, GAMBLER said:

Fishing lake trout alone will knock the population down some. C&R mortality can be pretty high. Keeping every lake trout allowed in your limit every trip isn’t a lot but it is helping. A lot of guys here in Lake Ontario refuse to fish them but will b*tch about them eating too many alewife!


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You're right Brian. Wisconsin did the right thing increasing the Laker limit to 5. We've been trying to get Illinois to do the same or at least go from 2 to 3 Laker limits.

[Lucky13]

Illinois and Wisconsin are US states and Lake Michigan is totally in the USA.  Lake Ontario is an international waterway, so decisions on management involve the Canadian opinion as much as the New York opinion.  And the Federal government has input and jurisdiction as well.  Since Lake trout are one of the indicators for the Lake Ontario LaMP, it is unlikely that regulations will change to allow more harvest, at least until natural reproduction ramps up a lot further than it has been doing.  And, although they were forced by hatchery problems, there have been cuts to LO lake trout stocking.

[Tyee II]

Lakes Michigan and Huron are connected and being considered as one body of water lately. In fact, even after the crash they still stock hundreds of thousands of Kings in Huron, and because those fish migrate and spend most of their lives in Lake Michigan, they are counted as LM stocked fish. If New York wanted to raise their Laker limits, no other state or otherwise should be able to tell them they can't. Just like Wisconsin did when the other members of the Lake Michigan Committee were opposed to it. They even refused the Federal Lake Trout that were supposed to be stocked on the mid-lake reef which nobody else has the stones to do. It's up to each state to decide what their limits are.

[Lucky13]

And New York does decide what it's limits are, but Lake Ontario is not just in New York, or even in the USA, it is an international waterbody.  How are the Canadians about border issues in the Niagara and the St Lawrence when they get a bug about something New York has pulled?  New York has wisely followed a collaborative path on its fisheries and objectives.  Lake Michigan has some serious problems if the loose cannons included state agencies, or maybe you've forgotten how close you came to an all out crash once before.

[Tyee II]

No I haven't forgotten about the "crash". There's many who believe we weren't as close as we were told. Just like everywhere, the right decisions can't always be made due to politics and usually when they can be, it takes too long to implement. Our situation is also dictated by a consent decree that forces us to have to accept an overabundance of the wrong mouths to feed. We can't choose whether or not we fish for Lakers...we're catching them on the surface running a Steelhead spoon going 3.5 mph. 

 

It's apples and oranges really, to compare the 2 lakes, but one glaringly obvious commonality between them is that most people prefer having silver fish make up the majority of their catch instead of Lakers. Some don't care, some love fishing for them, but nobody wants an overabundance of them.

 

I believe the cuts helped produce bigger Kings for Lake Michigan, but the bait boom is more from the lake being higher and reduced Cormorant populations. They're saying zebras aren't a problem anymore now too. Seems like Mother Nature knows more than we do.

 

Like Capt. Vince suggested earlier in this thread, most guys I know over here including myself are jealous of the size and numbers of Kings you guys have and most have the Big O on our bucket lists. If it were a bunch of Lakers....not worth towing the boat.

 

[GAMBLER]

No I haven't forgotten about the "crash". There's many who believe we weren't as close as we were told. Just like everywhere, the right decisions can't always be made due to politics and usually when they can be, it takes too long to implement. Our situation is also dictated by a consent decree that forces us to have to accept an overabundance of the wrong mouths to feed. We can't choose whether or not we fish for Lakers...we're catching them on the surface running a Steelhead spoon going 3.5 mph. 
 
It's apples and oranges really, to compare the 2 lakes, but one glaringly obvious commonality between them is that most people prefer having silver fish make up the majority of their catch instead of Lakers. Some don't care, some love fishing for them, but nobody wants an overabundance of them.
 
I believe the cuts helped produce bigger Kings for Lake Michigan, but the bait boom is more from the lake being higher and reduced Cormorant populations. They're saying zebras aren't a problem anymore now too. Seems like Mother Nature knows more than we do.
 
Like Capt. Vince suggested earlier in this thread, most guys I know over here including myself are jealous of the size and numbers of Kings you guys have and most have the Big O on our bucket lists. If it were a bunch of Lakers....not worth towing the boat.
 

I want to hear more about this declining cormorant population!!!!! Are they killing them? I wish NY would open a season. They were crushing the alewife schools today when we were out.


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[Tyee II]

 Just my own personal observations along with others. I used to see big flocks coming out of the water, or flying by every trip out a couple years ago. Don't see them nearly as much, I think I've seen one flock come out of the water all year. You still see them around, but not like they were.

 

Those things eat way more fish than even a Laker eats. I'd bet they're grabbing the big ones like the Lakers do too. Apex baitfish and fingerling predators!

 

I believe they lowered the protection on them finally and allowed for limited take-lethal control permits? I think it's helping. 

 

https://www.outdoornews.com/2018/07/09/in-michigan-push-continues-to-revive-cormorant-control-order/

[Sweet Caroline]

 Been told that 90% of the cormorant diet is gobies. Abundant and easy for them to catch 

[GAMBLER]

 Been told that 90% of the cormorant diet is gobies. Abundant and easy for them to catch 

Not the last two days from what I saw! They were pounding alewife all over when we were out.


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