Stocking cuts

[Low Baller]

Interesting read. As a weekend warrior from Pa my passion for Lake O's salmon and trout fishery started with a friend taking me to the river some 25 yrs ago. I was amazed to witness something that I've only read about or had seen in pictures. After a few yrs of caos, I moved to the lake in my small craft. Determined to figure it out. I tend to agree that the tribs need to be regulated better, but then I still fish late August through September as the stagers move in. Restricted to small craft and limited time. Should they regulate that too? Maybe. It's a double edge sword. I understand that most of the folks here make a living from this fishery, so there's always a conflict of interest. We all love to fish, and most of us try to be conscious of sustainability. Imo , I think that science has been doing a pretty good job but the almighty dollar will always win. Mother nature will have the final say.
Have a wonderful holiday folks, thanks for the wealth of information you all provide.

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[GAMBLER]

Wait till the trib guys see this.
This won't stir any trouble.
Lol.

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It’s not about stirring trouble. We need to protect natural reproduction and insure enough kings get to the hatchery for egg collection. The Salmon River is a snagger gauntlet for the kings. It’s amazing a single kings makes the 13 mile journey alive! If there DEC is going to manage the kings for the lake, they should do all they can to protect them when they spawn. To make the steelhead fishery better, they are imposing a reduced creel limit in the lake. Shouldn’t they follow the same pattern and insure a better king fishery by protecting the kings when they are spawning?


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[wishinfishin]

I understand exactly what your saying and agree.

I'm just sure the tribe guys will chime in.

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[chinook35]

I understand exactly what your saying and agree.

 

I'm just sure the tribe guys will chime in.

 

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They enacted the ban on the “ sport” of snagging in 1995. Maybe it’s time to limit the fishing on the Salmon River to the lower sections , say , below Pulaski. And put a “ season “ in effect. Maybe Sept 1 to Oct 1

[AAA]

23 hours ago, horsehunter said:

So are they saying the stocking will be reduced 60% from what it was 4 or 5 years ago.

I'm assuming the OMNR will be reducing the numbers by the same amount on our side of the puddle.

I guess we fish like hell for 2 years then see what we can get for our boats.

20% reduction year over year for three years is about a 49% reduction from the original pre-cut numbers or in other words the proposed King stocking would be about 51% of the King sticking total before the cuts began.  Still not great.

[wishinfishin]

It’s not about stirring trouble. We need to protect natural reproduction and insure enough kings get to the hatchery for egg collection. The Salmon River is a snagger gauntlet for the kings. It’s amazing a single kings makes the 13 mile journey alive! If there DEC is going to manage the kings for the lake, they should do all they can to protect them when they spawn. To make the steelhead fishery better, they are imposing a reduced creel limit in the lake. Shouldn’t they follow the same pattern and insure a better king fishery by protecting the kings when they are spawning?


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More to your point , walleye ,pike ,, etc have a closed season when spawning

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[Capt Vince Pierleoni]

On 12/20/2019 at 3:36 PM, GAMBLER said:

The lake temp is right on track for the same as last year. It got below 40 degrees on the same day last year almost the same hour. I wouldn’t expect a great YOY survival.


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Brian I feel strongly there will be a giant hatch from last Summers YOY. Now whether surveys find them thats another story. Just like the naturalized King and Coho Salmon, one of the greatest success stories in freshwater fishing history, they are continually adapting. It's crazy how many Alewives have been shallow in bays even with the onset of very cold water and even icing.

Years ago we were told by managers that anything colder than 39 degrees was lethal to Pacific Salmon, yet the naturalized fishery in Georgian bay gives up Kings through the ice and they catch them in open water in March there. 

The biggest concern I have is the micro managing we are seeing these days. I've seen brutal winters on Lake O before, and certainly have seen Spring Salmon decades ago that looked like they had a rough winter. It cycles back. 

We are certainly seeing SOME years with huge natural hatches, so far it's looking like about every 3-5 yrs. Stocking is a tool that can be dialed into areas that do not enjoy natural RETURNS--which is a huge historical aspect to Pacific Salmon planting. Unfortunately the cuts will only hurt the areas that are already suffering from little staging. 

With the latest round of cuts I have been blasted with calls and texts. Those that know me know that I sit on every board/panel there is. I was against each and every cut, and try as I did, I felt like my position and concerns fell on deaf ears. Sure, SOME years we have a big hatch, contributing lake wide when they are immature. Ultimately returning to their home areas as early as late July, leaving some areas much more devoid of returns. I love Lake O as much as anyone and would never want anything to hurt the fishery. I feel very strongly in this little surface area Great Lake that if surplus Kings occur they quickly get caught by todays intense, intelligent Salmon fishing pressure. The targeting of Pacific Salmon lakewide 7 months of the year on both sides of the pond is a relatively new occurrence. Less than 20 years ago fleets targeted trout more routinely and waited until "Salmon Season" to rig up for them. 

I do not agree with the "size at age" findings, and no one I know that fishes most days of the season has seen a drastic decline in Salmon size at each age--at least out in the open lake. Any shortage of super-out sized Salmon is not just from a greater density of Salmon in the population, but as was mentioned earlier is part of the species adapting to Lake Ontario. On top of that, the increased angling pressure crops a portion of the population before they reach their ultimate size potential. Only drastically decreased angling effort(what no one wants to see, but what led to the small population of big fish in Michigan that got caught) will make much of a difference in a handful of outsized Salmon being caught. My inquiries with serious anglers on Lake Michigan indicated that yes, there was a nice slug of bigger fish around mostly late Spring, but most angler effort still was directed towards Lake Trout. I don't think most people know how thinned out the Salmon population would have to become, and how much effort would have to decline to produce a group of rare extra large specimens. "The new normal" may not have been sustainable but to try to alter the population enough to create a big enough spike in size would certainly leave alot of anglers with dry coolers.

The concept that Lake Ontario Alewives can be permanently driven to extinction is utterly out of line. Any "mistakes" made by implementing a less conservative approach to the Salmon population are 100% reversible.

A couple other thoughts with all the stuff I see swirling around. If cormorant control was implemented, and/or stocking practices were used that protected Trout and Salmon from their predation, MANY more Steelhead would be saved than any knee jerk Lake limit that is being slapped on the Lake fishermen. Most avid lake anglers are sad that the proposed limit will actually be more detrimental to that species--doing just the opposite what the proposal hoped to do. That goes for any stocked Salmon and Trout, it makes little sense to just feed the birds after the time and expense of raising them. Lastly, I know we are in the middle of a "study", but its well documented in fishery management that Coho must be stocked as holdover Spring fish . The vast majority of NYs Coho are stocked in the fall and end up eaten by birds, trout, walleye, or caught repeatedly by stream fisherman as tiny minnow sized fish. If all our Coho were Spring stocked it would be an explosive contributor.

In closing, it was never my position that we didn't experience a couple of weak year classes of Alewives, only that this has happened several times before in the last 40 yrs since anyone paid attention to it. Sure the total alewife number was reduced but it was just less of an excess. Good things happen to the alewife population when it is controlled, and certainly the fans of Perch and Walleye hatches are rewarded-as alewives are a direct predator of those hatches.  The way the Chinook Salmon were distributed across the lake the last couple of Springs/early Summers is also an indicator that ample food was present East to West. 

If the DECs findings are accurate, 2019 provided a great natural class of Chinook so 2021 should see lots of age 2s sizzling around the lake. Some will mature and the rest will be large adults in 2022. 

Merry Christmas to everyone.            

Edited December 22, 2019 by Capt Vince Pierleoni

[jimski2]

39 degrees is the densest water below the ice. With Lake Ontario’s depths there is plenty of warmer water down there for the salmon and all the other fish.


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[Sk8man]

I very much enjoyed your post Vince and you make a number of well reasoned points worth mulling over. The comment regarding the impact of the cormorants is particularly important to the discussion. I am totally amazed that this bird species is protected by the Feds despite the damage they cause to not just the fisheries where they abound but the environment as well. After frequenting Cape Cod for roughly 40 years I have seen firsthand the impact the populations of cormorants have made there with hundreds of them sitting on the electric and telephone wires everywhere near the freshwater ponds and kettle lakes decimating the baitfish (herring etc.) as well as small fish of any species found there (perch, bass etc.) and they have no predators (including humans). They are constantly polluting these areas by fecal droppings in the water and along the shorelines altering and negatively affecting the ecosystem (in addition to the geese we have here which have been doing so for years now as well but at least there is seasonal hunting to control numbers). In addition to Lake Ontario they have moved into the Finger Lakes region as well and continually grow in numbers competing with the seagulls for available resources and continue to pollute the areas where found, and as they reproduce without and any natural or human intervention the problem continues to get worse and other existing species don't seem to be able to "out-compete" them either. We probably can't do much about the effects of Mother Nature but implementing some control over the cormorants and exerting "pressure" where possible should be of high priority as it may be more of a negative force on our fisheries than fully realized. I am a fan of birds in general but these things need to be controlled  in some fashion.

Just as a side note regarding some comments made in other postings on here for some time now regarding the comparison of salmon and lake trout impact on the alewife population and the long life of lakers vs. short life of Pacific salmon and its impact on the alewife population. Something to keep in mind is that the (much maligned) lake trout have a diverse diet where salmon nearly exclusively feed on alewives right through the size range of the bait and themselves. The extreme growth rate during the short few years the salmon (and perhaps browns as well) are alive speaks volumes about this relationship, and the slower growth rate of lakers  over extended time probably to some degree suggests they are eating things with less nutritional value than alewives. I love the salmon as much as anyone and they are a hell of a lot more fun to catch usually but I think also that blaming the lakers for decimating the baitfish (if it is accurate which is questionable in my mind) may not be totally fair.

Edited December 22, 2019 by Sk8man

[rolmops]

58 minutes ago, Sk8man said:

I very much enjoyed your post Vince and you make a number of well reasoned points worth mulling over. The comment regarding the impact of the cormorants is particularly important to the discussion. I am totally amazed that this bird species is protected by the Feds despite the damage they cause to not just the fisheries where they abound but the environment as well. After frequenting Cape Cod for roughly 40 years I have seen firsthand the impact the populations of cormorants have made there with hundreds of them sitting on the electric and telephone wires everywhere near the freshwater ponds and kettle lakes decimating the baitfish (herring etc.) as well as small fish of any species found there (perch, bass etc.) and they have no predators (including humans). They are constantly polluting these areas by fecal droppings in the water and along the shorelines altering and negatively affecting the ecosystem (in addition to the geese we have here which have been doing so for years now as well but at least there is seasonal hunting to control numbers). In addition to Lake Ontario they have moved into the Finger Lakes region as well and continually grow in numbers competing with the seagulls for available resources and continue to pollute the areas where found, and as they reproduce without and any natural or human intervention the problem continues to get worse and other existing species don't seem to be able to "out-compete" them either. We probably can't do much about the effects of Mother Nature but implementing some control over the cormorants and exerting "pressure" where possible should be of high priority as it may be more of a negative force on our fisheries than fully realized. I am a fan of birds in general but these things need to be controlled  in some fashion.

Just as a side note regarding some comments made in other postings on here for some time now regarding the comparison of salmon and lake trout impact on the alewife population and the long life of lakers vs. short life of Pacific salmon and its impact on the alewife population. Something to keep in mind is that the (much maligned) lake trout have a diverse diet where salmon nearly exclusively feed on alewives right through the size range of the bait and themselves. The extreme growth rate during the short few years the salmon (and perhaps browns as well) are alive speaks volumes about this relationship, and the slower growth rate of lakers  over extended time probably to some degree suggests they are eating things with less nutritional value than alewives. I love the salmon as much as anyone and they are a hell of a lot more fun to catch usually but I think also that blaming the lakers for decimating the baitfish (if it is accurate which is questionable in my mind) may not be totally fair.

I know that this sounds weird,but at this point in time, it is not the Feds that are protecting the cormorants. It is a decision that was made by a local judge about 4 years ago that forbade the culling of cormorants in any other way than addling the eggs.This turned over a decision allowing the culling of cormorants.

The town of Brighton, NY had a severe problem with Canadian geese and in order to solve this problem, the town organized a volunteer group that went out to addle the goose eggs. They were armed with swamp gear (hip waders), umbrellas and spray bottles with some sort of oil that sealed off all air from the embryos after it was sprayed onto the eggs and the goose population was drastically reduced.

Maybe just possibly we can gather some volunteers for a few Saturdays to go to cormorant colonies and addle their eggs. It is not as exiting as shooting them, but it does get the job done. If any of you good people have contact with DEC officials we might even get their support.

Edited December 22, 2019 by rolmops

[chinook35]

This exact action was taken by the DEC on Little Galloo. It curtailed development of fledgling cormorants on the island. I believe it’s been stopped   why , is not known  

[GAMBLER]

I very much enjoyed your post Vince and you make a number of well reasoned points worth mulling over. The comment regarding the impact of the cormorants is particularly important to the discussion. I am totally amazed that this bird species is protected by the Feds despite the damage they cause to not just the fisheries where they abound but the environment as well. After frequenting Cape Cod for roughly 40 years I have seen firsthand the impact the populations of cormorants have made there with hundreds of them sitting on the electric and telephone wires everywhere near the freshwater ponds and kettle lakes decimating the baitfish (herring etc.) as well as small fish of any species found there (perch, bass etc.) and they have no predators (including humans). They are constantly polluting these areas by fecal droppings in the water and along the shorelines altering and negatively affecting the ecosystem (in addition to the geese we have here which have been doing so for years now as well but at least there is seasonal hunting to control numbers). In addition to Lake Ontario they have moved into the Finger Lakes region as well and continually grow in numbers competing with the seagulls for available resources and continue to pollute the areas where found, and as they reproduce without and any natural or human intervention the problem continues to get worse and other existing species don't seem to be able to "out-compete" them either. We probably can't do much about the effects of Mother Nature but implementing some control over the cormorants and exerting "pressure" where possible should be of high priority as it may be more of a negative force on our fisheries than fully realized. I am a fan of birds in general but these things need to be controlled  in some fashion.
Just as a side note regarding some comments made in other postings on here for some time now regarding the comparison of salmon and lake trout impact on the alewife population and the long life of lakers vs. short life of Pacific salmon and its impact on the alewife population. Something to keep in mind is that the (much maligned) lake trout have a diverse diet where salmon nearly exclusively feed on alewives right through the size range of the bait and themselves. The extreme growth rate during the short few years the salmon (and perhaps browns as well) are alive speaks volumes about this relationship, and the slower growth rate of lakers  over extended time probably to some degree suggests they are eating things with less nutritional value than alewives. I love the salmon as much as anyone and they are a hell of a lot more fun to catch usually but I think also that blaming the lakers for decimating the baitfish (if it is accurate which is questionable in my mind) may not be totally fair.

Lakers have a diverse diet yet they eat way more alewife than anything else. Years of laker fishing and being a first mate for Sam Datillo in my younger years, I cut up a ton of lakers. The only time we found more gobies than alewife was in early April before the bait come in from the deep.


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[UNREEL]

38 minutes ago, rolmops said:

I know that this sounds weird,but at this point in time, it is not the Feds that are protecting the cormorants. It is a decision that was made by a local judge about 4 years ago that forbade the culling of cormorants in any other way than addling the eggs.This turned over a decision allowing the culling of cormorants.

the town of Brighton, NY had a severe problem with Canadian geese and in order to solve this problem, the town organized a volunteer group that went out to addle the goose eggs. They were armed with swamp gear (hip waders), umbrellas and spray bottles with some sort of oil that sealed off all air from the embryos after it was sprayed onto the eggs.

Maybe just possibly we can gather some volunteers for a few Saturdays to go to cormorant colonies and addle their eggs. It is not as exiting as shooting them, but it does get the job done. If any of you good people have contact with DEC officials we might even get their support.

Rolmops- I am not an expert, but you state a few misconceptions. Cormorants have been federally protected since 1972 under the Migratory Bird Act. Decisions on culling are made by the US Fish & Wildlife Service. Animal rights groups got a federal injunction on culling/shooting, oiling and whatever 4-5 yrs ago. This may be what you are referring to.  Only in 2019 did the USFWS allow some limited  shooting permits on aquaculture fish farms down south. Our DEC has their hands tied. 

As far as nest oiling, cormorants roost/nest in trees. Not practical. 

I agree it is a major problem not only with fish stocks, but these  winged rats have destroyed several islands in Irondequoit Bay with others severely damaged. Gallo and Stoney saw this years ago. 

[Sk8man]

Brian I consider you to be a lake Ontario Laker expert and I know the Lake O fishery is different than that of the Finger Lakes etc. but after over 50 years of catching them in both places and salmon since the mid seventies I'm pretty familiar with both species as well, but I am no formally trained biologist either so my opinion probably should be taken with that in mind, but in all those years I have never seen anything other than than alewives (than one instance of  what looked like a partially digested cisco) in the Pacific salmon stomach contents. On the other hand I have seen just about everything in the stomach contents of lakers including quite a few surprises such as a rubber worm, a jig, Zebra mussel shells, crayfish. and freshwater clams and also when rainbow smelt were around a lot of them were in the contents along with stonecats (freshwater sculpin). The sculpin ( in the Fingers historically and Lake O as well) are a favorite food source for lakers in the Spring and again in the Fall when they inhabit the shallows. Gobies a more recent addition to the food chain are very similar in appearance so in the earlier years mentioned they may have been probably one of the two varieties of sculpin available I would imagine. In the summer months alewives would naturally become the prime target for most if not all species of adult salmon and trout out in the depths. Not many fishermen fish the winter months in boats for a lot of understandable reasons but the same applies  to deep water fishing for lakers at least on the Fingers as the smelt are virtually gone in most places. What I was referencing in my previous post is that  at least there is some break in the chowing of alewives with respect to the lakers whereas with the salmon it is virtually constant. Although I have often found multiple alewives in the stomach contents of lakers but  I've frequently seen multiple baitfish in the mouths of salmon and browns and in one case 9 sawbellies in the mouth and throat while it still inhaled my spoon suggesting they have very voracious appetites and may be more efficient feeders of alewives. Lakers are often bottom feeders and therefore come into contact with other baitfish species and sources of food while the pelagics are pretty much roamers and feed in the stratified water nearly exclusively where the alewives are most prominent; especially during the warmer months. I guess that is what I was basing that opinion on. I do have a better familiarity with the Finger Lakes dynamics  than Lake O with respect to this issue though and that may be more significant than I took into account too.

Edited December 22, 2019 by Sk8man

[Sweet Caroline]

Gambler...Ah Sam Dattilo...he was my Great Uncle. That explains your laker catching ability:). 

 

Just out of curiosity what does have the most diverse diet? Browns, lakers, Steelhead, coho...

I rarely put any fish under the knife so it would be interesting to hear from others. I’m sure it is season dependent to some extent. 

Edited December 22, 2019 by A-Lure-A

[Missdemeanor]

Brown's for sure have a diverse diet... They eat Gobies like popcorn all year...

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[GAMBLER]

Gambler...Ah Sam Dattilo...he was my Great Uncle. That explains your laker catching ability:). 
 
Just out of curiosity what does have the most diverse diet? Browns, lakers, Steelhead, coho...
I rarely put any fish under the knife so it would be interesting to hear from others. I’m sure it is season dependent to some extent. 

Sam was a great man and a great friend. I started making Gambler Rigs and used them on his boat when is was in college. I brought them one day and it took a lot of convincing to get him to change his routine. At the end of the day, I was headed home to make a bunch of them up for him! He is greatly missed!


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[Sk8man]

I'd say that the order in which the fish are listed above pretty much captures the answer

[Low Baller]

Can't help but follow along here. I realize this thread started as a stocking format but I'm curious. Why does it seem that smelt get limited attention as a source of prey. I'm uneducated here. Alot of the lakes I've fished seemed to have a substantial smelt population over alewife. I cut my teeth fishing the finger lakes and Adirondack lakes in the 70s. Rainbow smelt used to be pretty abundant. What am I missing?

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[GAMBLER]

At the state of the lake meeting a couple years ago they posted a graphic that showed the pecking order of alewife consumption. I will have to see if I can dig it up.


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[chinook35]

Can't help but follow along here. I realize this thread started as a stocking format but I'm curious. Why does it seem that smelt get limited attention as a source of prey. I'm uneducated here. Alot of the lakes I've fished seemed to have a substantial smelt population over alewife. I cut my teeth fishing the finger lakes and Adirondack lakes in the 70s. Rainbow smelt used to be pretty abundant. What am I missing?

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In the 70’s you could fill up the bed of a pickup with smelt at most any tributary. Selkirk was a great place to dip. The introduction of the pacific salmon spelled doom to the smelt. The salmon liked them as much as we do there are still smelt in LO , but nowhere near the population that once was


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[Sk8man]

17 minutes ago, chinook35 said:

In the 70’s you could fill up the bed of a pickup with smelt at most any tributary. Selkirk was a great place to dip. The introduction of the pacific salmon spelled doom to the smelt. The salmon liked them as much as we do there are still smelt in LO , but nowhere near the population that once was

Might find this interesting....   :https://www.purdue.edu/newsroom/releases/2015/Q1/causes-of-great-lakes-smelt-population-decline-are-complex.html

 

 

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Edited December 22, 2019 by Sk8man

[Legacy]

1 hour ago, Low Baller said:

Can't help but follow along here. I realize this thread started as a stocking format but I'm curious. Why does it seem that smelt get limited attention as a source of prey. I'm uneducated here. Alot of the lakes I've fished seemed to have a substantial smelt population over alewife. I cut my teeth fishing the finger lakes and Adirondack lakes in the 70s. Rainbow smelt used to be pretty abundant. What am I missing?

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They are now where near the biomass of alewife in Lake O. They are a very, very small piece of the puzzle.

[chinook35]

 

Yes very interesting study there are so many variables that have been introduced to the Great Lakes. It’s difficult to pin anything on anything All the invasives , changes in water clarity, changes in temps. And on and on. Only time will tell the story


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[Sk8man]

And....not just the Great Lakes Finger Lakes as well.....something in common....filtering action of zebras and quagga mussels?

Edited December 22, 2019 by Sk8man