Precision Trolling Edition 2

[Shade]

I just received a copy of Precision Trolling Edition 2 today and there is a page with a chart on Copper Line. They only tested 45# Test .35 diameter Line at 2.0 and 3.0 mph.

Here is what it shows:

2.0 mph

Feet Down - 100' - 200' - 300' - 400'

Feet Back - 27' - 45' - 48' - 56'

3.0 mph

Feet Back - 100' - 200' - 300' - 400'

Feet Down - 16' - 34' - 38' - 44'

I read this to say that 27' of line runs 100' down and so on. I am sure this must be a misprint unless I just made a fool of myself and I do not understand what I am reading. If anyone has this book see if it is the same if not what am I missing here?

Howie

[Legacy]

its a misprint. they just reversed feet down and feet back. The numbers on the actual depths have created some controversy.

[ray koziatek]

last year going 2.5mph with 10 colors lead pulling coho rig(00dodger with fly),i forgot i had it out when i slid into 25 ft water and it never hit bottom so i kept going in slow and it finally hit in 17 ft of water.knot at the water and a few passes to boot.

[Shade]

Ray and Legacy,

Thanks for the come back.

Ray,

In this book it shows 18# Lead Core at 2.0 mph back 10 colors with 50' mono leader - depth is 58' and at 3 mph is 31' down. Using 27# at 2.0 mph - depth is 59' and 3.0 mph - 29', with 36# - depth is 57' at 2.0 mph and 32 at 3.0 mph.

Once again the 27# Lead Core runs deeper at 2.0 than 36# but the 36# runs deeper at 3.0 mph.

This is a huge difference from what you got at 2.5 with 10 colors back.

I think I just through $35 out the door. I sent them an email to explane the difference in depths. See how they respond.

Howie

[ray koziatek]

yup sounding fishy from what i was lernt and that was the lead dia is the same with the sheath giving it its strength therefore srtonger line should be larger dia with same amount of lead so it should run higher than the lighter line

[chowder]

It seems to me like lead core w/ a flasher kinda "floats up", especially the fatter 27lb, a couple times last year I went over a hump, that made the dipsies dig & trip and the flies were dragging zebras, but the 10 color fly, which should have been running deeper than the dipsies, had nothing on it. What's up with that, is it related to using boards, or does lead stop dropping at the same rate after a bunch of it is out w/ flasher on it?

[Gill-T]

Maybe we have been running higher than we thought? Since these guys are the only ones with a wet suit observing the actual depth, we may have to take their word for it. Just like using your line counter to reproduce where a fish came from with wire/dipsys, it doesn't really matter what the number is, only that we make sure we put it back out at the same number. If fish are hitting the 400 and not the 200' copper, then run the 400' (obviously). The only factor I can see causing the discrepancy is drag/friction. As more copper is being let out there is a diminished return on depth when straight line trolling. Only when we turn and stall do you see the greater depths achieved due to the dropping weight. This is good news in my opinion....it means I don't have to dispense "the beast" (600' copper) anymore. I have NO patience for copper in that long of a segment. With the diminished return curve, I going to chop that 600' into a 250' and a 300' and get more use out of the crap.

[chinook]

Andy, As far as your dipseys tripping, and not your 10 color catching bottom, there are variables coming into play. First in depends on the actual dipsey size- ring or no ring- setting of the dipsey-a- 0 or 1 will dig deeper than a 3. Use of wire, braid or mono. Set back, speed and etc. I agree with Chad, that drag/ friction does come into play. Such as pulling a flasher/fly rig off a full core would make the rig rise, as evidenced when Ray said he hit bottom in 17 F.O.W. pulling 10 colors. Whereas using a full core and pulling a spoon would achieve greater depth I.M.O., due to less drag. In a nut shell, your dipsey rigs were obviously trolling deeper than your core line, at that time. Has nothing to do with the use of the boards-

Duane

[Gill-T]

I wonder if there is a belly in the copper where we may be "lining" fish before the bait comes by? I would think you could be spooking fish with that scenario.

[momay4000]

I agree with Gill-T, I think as a general rule we tend to run our baits higher than what we think they are running at because we typically think "rules" such as "lead core sinks 4.5 feet for every color out...." or " wire depth is a 3:1 ratio...." and so forth. However, when you look at the Precision Trolling curves, for the most part the curves aren't linear, i.e. the farther out a lure/line is from the boat, the less is the rate of sink of the lure. Trolling depth is quite complicated and it actually takes into account fluid mechanics, but trolling should be simple and fun, not complicated.

I use the Precision guide every time we're out as a general guide, and then adjust from there. I trust that they have put in the hours and visualized lures underwater so I have to trust their data. However, certainly currents, boat speed, lure size (flashers vs. spoons) makes a huge difference.

In my opinion, when we start hitting fish, it's not so much what we THINK the depth is of the lure, but rather a guide for reproducibility for the rest of the day.

I agree with Ray as well, last year we had a 10 color core out in 30 feet of water fishing browns, probably 2.0 mph surface speed or so, and it never snagged bottom either.....

Just my 2 cents......

- Chris

Disclaimer - I have no relationship to Precision Trolling....

[Shade]

Gentlemen,

Most of you have fished Ontario a lot longer than we have so we are still learning. For the most part we do well most of the time, with the exception of tournaments. I purchased this book from Presition because I have been told on numerous occasions it had helpful information. I certainly am not blamming anyone for their input, believe me this website has helped us put plenty of fish in the boat and I pay close attention to the responses when I ask a question.

I am just confused on the Lead Core and ( I am sure it must be a printing mistake) Copper Line. From what I read and through research Lead Core drops down 4 - 5 feet per color. This the information all over the internet in every freshwater fishing tip area I can find. What has now really put a monkey wrench in this information is what Ray said while fishing in 17' of water. All the information out there is 10 colors with a 50' lead of mono (20' flouro, 20'mono and 20'braided) and mid-range size spoons. I have not seen much trolling Lead with flashers but I have seen options with added weights.

We use the system that is listed with tips from the Oak and we do add some lead weight at the knots as instructed with these tips. Getting back to my original issue was the HUGE difference from what Presition Trolling shows as depths and speed vs. what Ray shared when he was in 17' of water. Presition has Lead at down 58' running 2 mph with 50' of mono a spoon and down 32' at 3 mph with the same set-up. Ray was running 10 colors at 2.5 mph with a spoon and never hit bottom at 17'. Thats 15 - 41 foot difference in depths and as Fuccillo would say that is HUUUUUGGAA!!!.

Howie

[ray koziatek]

noooo shade i said a 00dodger with fly lots of drag, spoons in normal size i use the 5 ft per color rule ..the more drag the flatter anything will run (higher), I wasnt disputing the books numbers just adding my experience with a 00-dodger and fly.

[Fishtails]

I think a couple things are being overlooked on Ray's calculations. First and most obvious are that Ray failed to include the number of coors lights consumed on the day these observations were made . Secondly, don't forget that when Ray hit bottom In 17 fow.....that's where his boat was, but the leadcore was 100 yards+ behind the boat. Tuff to say what the depth was exactly when It hit bottom, but It's unlikely that the water depth was exactly the same as It was under the boat where the reading was made. If he was trolling Inshore then the actual flasher/fly was probably deeper.

[ray koziatek]

argggggghhhhhh, i said slowly that means almost parallel to shore . i was actually doing the test thing after relizing not touching botom in 25ft so i was running almost parrell the the shore line ,i must be getting picked on if so ya got me if not the depth i said are very close to actual maybe 2 ft off for the transducer depth from the surface so 19ft might be a closer to actual depth for my testing. even though i post a funny post or two i usually post as accurate as possable when it comes to fishing tips..and methouds..........

[Fishtails]

i must be getting picked on if so ya got me

But of course I'm messing with you....I know you would't have It any other way Ray !!

[Shade]

Sorry Ray, I miss read your response. So a double 00 dodger would bring the lead up that much higher? I haven't run anything but spoons on Lead Core and I only ran it once on boards. I usualy run Lead right down the middle and switch it with Copper, run flies and SD's on the steel with dipsy's.

Thanks for the info.

Howie

[Gill-T]

Looking at the figures and the diminished return with added length of copper, one might conclude using anything over 400' is a silly waste of time and money. It would seem that if you had a 200' and a 400' off either side you would be covering water in the 45-55' zone. If you want deeper, then it would be prudent to add pinch-ons.....but then you don't get the triggering slow fall on turns, but a more abrupt version. Lots to think about .

[No Promises]

Have not read the new book, but if I look at my log book the best sunny day rod is that 600 cooper. After the wires quit, and when the fish are near 80- 100' my 400 sits there and washes lures all day. Dead as a door nail. I'll bring in fish on that 600 the rest of the day. On my probe I run around 2.3 and the 600 hits bottom at 85' with SD and fly. I have seen probes be 3 to 5 tenth different from boat to boat. My advice is not to cut up that 600 copper. Put that junk lure you got that seems to land fish for everyone but you and run it out there till it hit bottom at your boat speed, then you will know. If you run the 600 long enough it tends to shorten it self if you know what I mean. Then off to the store for some more.