DEC Announces Actions to Protect Salmon River Fish Populations

[King Davy]

Absolutely. If spawning salmon get in any river or creek , eggs hatch late winter early (March) spring. Those fish are in the fingerling stage by April, when water in the tribs is generally in the high 40’s to low 50’s. They begin to make there way towards the lake in May and June. Faster if the water begins to warm up sooner.

 

We tend to not name streams especially small ones on this site so I won’t call them out. You can’t miss these little par marked fish. As you step along the stream bed they’ll congregate behind you eating stream invertebrates you kick up.

 

In study’s done by DEC many years ago they’ve done shore line netting in June and have found these naturals along shore that were smaller then the crop of hatchery raised fish.

 

Let’s do some math just for the Salmon. They begin their seining project every spring late April, but all of May into June. Every week and they sample from Altmar right to where the salmon river enters the lake. A “banner” year is a result of 7 to 10 million successfully hatched fry.

 

A reasonable percentage of survival is anywhere from 3 to 5 %. At 10 mill that anywhere from 350 to 500k additional adult fish. Now add in the dozens of rivers and streams on the south shore alone not to mention the highly successful North shore tribs and you have a lot of fish.

 

If you think stocking 2 million fish at those same survival rates would produce the fishing we’ve enjoyed the last 10 plus years your kidding yourself.

 

2 mill stocked fish at a 5% survival rate is 100,000 fish. You think we had this magnificent fishing on just 100k adults from one end of the lake to the other?

 

NFW.

 

 

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[jimski2]

Hatchery raised fish are raised in a warmer well water source. This increases their growth rate so when they are released into the lake they survive better than undersized stream hatched fish. The smaller fish are more likely to become forage for all the Lake Ontario fish. Fishing for salmon is more dependent on hatchery supplied fish and an adequate supply of the well water.

[King Davy]

Last time DEC did a fin clip of hatchery raised salmon and then did a calculation upon their fall egg take, the natural reproduced fish inside the hatchery was greater than hatchery returns. My experience in the many places I’ve fished around the US and Canada is that wild reproduced fish generally had better survival instincts. DEC believed at the time that about 60% of the salmon population was wild. I bet if you asked them today that number would be even higher.

But they certainly are much smaller upon entering the open waters of LO.


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[DavidA]

I agree that the fishery should be closed at some point. I live in redfield and fish the river 60 days a year or more. I came from the west coast 10 yrs ago and out there when water flows go below a minimum level the rivers are shut down to fishing. In my opinion the salmon river should be shut down anytime the water flows drop below 750 after sept 1st thru nov.15th to allow all the salmon species especially the Atlantic's a fighting chance to make it thru the swatters. I also notice alot of the people cant tell the difference between steelhead and coho, or Atlantic's and browns. I see illegal fish kept every time I fish (yes I'm the **** that says something to those idiots). Its funny because I notice when I speak up other guys around me will back it up but most people dont say ****. SPEAK UP. When they show up at the fillet stations with illegal fish they should get reported. I hate regulations but they are necessary for reasons like this. I think it should be mandatory they are turned in by the fillet stations. Maybe it is I dont keep trout or salmon I put them all back so i dont know.

[HB2]

There was a guy on here a,while back who suggested that there was a lot more Nat repro of kings on the south shore  than most thought . And as,I recall he got pretty beat up over it . 

 

Can't remember who that was . 

[chinook35]

Can we start by torching dsr? I looked the other day and it’s $85 to fish there now 

That’s why I will never vote for Barclay. He closed that whole section of the Salmon River to all but paid fishing. You can’t even wade. He got the courts to rule that he owns the river bottom. He makes a fortune off of state owned property


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[DavidA]

I researched the ruling on the legality of the DSR.  It's a joke. They threw out an existing precedent from a ruling in Rochester that you cant own the river. And to make it worse they ruled kyackers can float anywhere and Portage over private property off the water and cant be stopped. The corruption in this is obvious.

I'm a Republican and I would never vote for him either. 

[Lucky13]

It is astounding how many attorneys frequent this site! 

[Gill-T]

Full disclosure Lucky. 

[Lucky13]

DIsclosure of what?  Barclay owns or leases from the property owners all the river bottom under the DSR stretch.  He's not the only one running pay for play on the tribs.  He is totally within his rights according to his deeds and NYS Courts.  You can navigate through his stretch, but if you anchor or fish, you are trespassing..

[Frogger]

DIsclosure of what?  Barclay owns or leases from the property owners all the river bottom under the DSR stretch.  He's not the only one running pay for play on the tribs.  He is totally within his rights according to his deeds and NYS Courts.  You can navigate through his stretch, but if you anchor or fish, you are trespassing..

I’m not familiar with another place in NY where on NYS waters you are unable to fish due to a private citizen owning the land under it. I realize you can’t anchor but at the DSR stretch you can’t even wet a line with a bobber while floating.


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[Gill-T]

36 minutes ago, Lucky13 said:

DIsclosure of what?  Barclay owns or leases from the property owners all the river bottom under the DSR stretch.  He's not the only one running pay for play on the tribs.  He is totally within his rights according to his deeds and NYS Courts.  You can navigate through his stretch, but if you anchor or fish, you are trespassing..

It would be helpful to the viewing audience if began your counter point with.....”Full disclosure, I am a guide (or was a guide) on the DSR. Here is my prospective......”

[King Davy]

I’m happy to do full disclosure. Gill didn’t know you were a lawyer besides being a DDS.(just kidding)

 

Ok way back before it was day or season lease to fish both Barkley and a couple other land owners (3) owned property on one side of that 2.5 miles of water and Doug the length on the other side (north and south side).

And between the Barkley and the other land owners they collectively pay taxes on and including the stream bed.

 

Back to pre pay days. They decided to post it up and leaned towards not letting anybody fish it Why? Because the anglers who walked it freely did what? Trashed it every year. From human waste to tons and I mean metric tons of garbage that guess who had to clean up? Easy guess the land owners.

 

Barkley talked the other land owners into leasing to him and he’d try to manage it, and to do so had to hire people to run the business. He created a dozen or so paying jobs in a economical poor area to manage the property, the several nice lodges bordering it, and run the fishing operation.

 

Over the years it has gotten more expensive as almost any service these days, but he has created manicured trails. A welcome center so you can dress and undress in the dead of winter. Clean men and women’s restrooms, and a staff to walk the property to not only dismiss those fishing unethically, but also for safety measures in case of injury.

 

DSR has been host to several veterans and CFR events at no charge and driven participants around the property who had physical issues to walk and wade.

 

In 2014 when we were seeing a huge die off of steelhead, DEC used the DSR property to collect not only steelhead but especially salmon eggs to test for B1 deficiencies. That year we saw a huge number of salmon not going up river and DEC wondered if B1 deficiencies were present in the salmon since they didn’t appear to have the energy to run to the hatchery. The DSR property was the ideal place to do collect samples and Barkley welcomed them just as he does every year in the all important seining event to determine the annual salmon egg hatch.

 

I am no longer a guide( never was a river guide) I fish his property because I get the best shot at fresh run fish that are much better biters than they will be up river after running the gauntlet for 10 miles.

 

Much like many of you who lease private owners land to deer, duck and goose hunt. You do it because you want a safe, and semi private (semi because many of you lease with your friends) place to hunt. Many of those deer leases are WAY more expensive than fishing on the DSR. Finally I know of three other places on the Salmon where you either have to pay to fish their water, or you have to be staying at their lodge to access their property.

 

Bottom line the DSR is pay to fish simply because “Sportsman” literally crapped all over their property and left enough garbage to fill a landfill.

 

That Gill... is the full disclosure.

 

 

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[Frogger]

KD, thanks for explaining some of that. Didn’t realize the involvement they have with DEC which is a good thing. My beef is the fishing. Take out the land ownership and taxes etc. I’m not disputing that. How does one post the water, take ownership of the states property (Fish) and not allow other paying citizens to them if in fact they are floating by? To your point on hunting and leases and private property, yes I like to hunt where I own, but I can’t fence in the animals so that they are completely mine. That’s illegal. It’s really the one part of this that I have not seen a good explanation on and what I mentioned early in another post I’d put some fluff to legal to see if it could get a difference of opinion legally. Just me though.


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[GAMBLER]

As long as there is plenty of public access on the tribs that are pay to play, I have no problem with them.  I have fished the DSR and it was nice water and clean.  They also booted snaggers that were breaking the law.  Isn't the DSR catch and release on trout? 

[Frogger]

As long as there is plenty of public access on the tribs that are pay to play, I have no problem with them.  I have fished the DSR and it was nice water and clean.  They also booted snaggers that were breaking the law.  Isn't the DSR catch and release on trout? 

I tend to agree Brian with most of it but only problem for me and what sparked me in this is that I payed to go on a charter but when we reached the DSR area those days of float fishing you couldn’t fish ? I told the guide your kidding right, he said nope, all lines have to be out of the water. That part just doesn’t seem right in Denmark.


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[King Davy]

Well i can tell you the fish scoot through the DSR pretty quickly. You have to be there on a special day where fish hold long enough to actually present a bait to them. Coho’s come through at warp speed and most Kings blast through there without stopping.

 

They limit the numbers of anglers in the run. If you are a season pass holder you are never turned away. But after salmon season from late fall/winter through spring there is usually no more than 30 to 60 people in 2.5 miles. For me that’s worth every penny.

 

It’s under management for pay to fish because the landowners were sick and tired of the slobs that walked on for free and trashed their land. Are all the farmers out there that offer deer leases any different. Ok the state didn’t stock the deer, but trout and salmon don’t swim into the DSR and stay there for very long. They are on a mission to come up river. And you are not allowed to kill a trout or Atlantic salmon on this property so nobody fishing there is taking fish out before free roam fishing comes into play.

 

 

 

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[DavidA]

I understand the garbage issue and I myself pick up lots of stuff but from the logic they own under the water that would mean when you fish along the edges of any lake with private property in ny your trespassing and cant legally fish. 

 I can understand the banks being illegal but anywhere else in our country navicable waters can legally be fished. And you can float a boat from altmar all the way to the atlantic ocean.

[Fat Trout]

5 hours ago, GAMBLER said:

  Isn't the DSR catch and release on trout? 

Yes.   A guy got kicked out Sunday morning for having 2 browns on a stringer.  Patrol guy said the guy told them he didn't know.  Thats a tough sell these days since he not only had a C&R fish in there but had one more than the new NYS tributary limits.

 

 

 

 

[King Davy]

I think we have to recheck the rules. I’ve never known that you couldn’t float through. I know of a few river guides that float through the DSR especially in spring. But they must have passes because they want to anchor and float fish or plug different sections.

 

The issue today would be you couldn’t get a pool toy through the DSR without bottoming out this time of year with the flows. The ferc license calls for flows at 335 cfs. Now holding at 185 with the low Rez. With additional water from some small tribs the cfs under normal conditions might be 120 cfs greater. So maybe 450 cfs. Still at that rate there are several sections you’d have to get out.

 

And with 250 people in their during salmon season why would anybody want to be in that mess with a boat. With most people standing in the flows and pocket water.

 

The land owners pay taxes that include the acreage that is the bottom. So if you stand in it without permission you are trespassing. I know of many landowners that have creeks running through their properties that own both sides of a creek so if you think you can walk down the middle of it to jump ducks or deer etc, without permission... your trespassing.

 

Don’t confuse this with a lake and the high water mark as a boundary. Small Rivers streams and trickles generally have two distinct shores and owners that own both or to separate owners where each may own to the center of the creek or river.

 

Like many have said there’s another 10 miles of river upstream of the DSR. So if you dislike the situation go up river. Obviously the place fills up everyday during the salmon run because there are many who enjoy that water and are willing to pay to get on it... AND agree to play by the rules of the property.

 

[DavidA]

I understand what your saying but what I'm trying to say is how is this river different from say the east or west branch of the deleware. So again under this logic you cant legally fish most of the upper deleware. There are tons of private landowners there. You do seem to know what I'm talking about because  you realize the law of the rest of the country is high water mark, high tide mark, or top of wave slope. I understand a place were there is no access but there you can access the water from the BH ,the pipeline,  the dec land at the bottom or come up from the estuary. Since I've lived here I've seen places that had fishing rites become private. For instance off of Jerry look road and off of the east branch of the salmon river and a piece of the black river by boonville. This is a slippery slope and unfortunately we are sliding down it.

[King Davy]

DavidA all depends on what the deed to the land stipulates. I wasn’t in court way back when the judge made the ruling but what I understood was the land deed from way back in the 1700’s when this land was settled by the family, they owned both sides of the river and the river bottom was included.

I assume the judge found the land deed to be authentic and why the ruling. Be careful to compare different rivers and watersheds legal access rights as they are usually unique in their own way.

This was decided a long time ago I don’t see the sense in still debating this. Hey the Joss property which Barkley leases is up for sale. They want 1$ Million for 800 feet of frontage. Any takers?


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[HB2]

But I would bet the,fishing rights to that property are leased to the DSR and are in  the deed   somehow . 

 

 

[King Davy]

Nope. If you throw down the million you get the Joss Hole all to yourself. It wouldn’t be part of the DSR lease.


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[Sk8man]

I guess in following this thread I find myself wondering 'Unless you are coming from New Mexico, Nevada or the Dakotas etc.to salmon fish for the first time why mess with the Salmon River at all when there are so many other good places to fish in New York State and fishing for the "zombies" has never seemed real attractive anyway?" It just seems that things have gotten so complicated and paying to stream fish seems to  really detract from the "sporting" aspect of it all. I'm sure this is an unpopular opinion but I couldn't resist

Edited September 22, 2020 by Sk8man