DEC Announces Actions to Protect Salmon River Fish Populations

[Missdemeanor]

There is no way in hell you can take any angler hours for 2017, 2019, and 2020. As " Data"... High water in 2017, and 2019 kept many ramps closed and many people off the lakes ... Marinas were flooded... ECT...
Now look at this year... China Virus... Charter Industry took a big hit.. Many many people cancelling from out of town due to our Governor's quarantine orders. On top
Of all of that, I had cancellations due to out of town guests not feeling safe in Rochester due to the Riots...


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[King Davy]

Yes I agree 2020, 19 and 17 had effect on boating hours. I’m looking at the state of the lake numbers reported each spring. Those are for trout and salmon trips only. (I think bass as well). They aren’t nearly 900k hours. That number might be all fishing trips to include pan fish pike etc. BUT it’s a great point that both the open water fishing, and the trib season are no worse than equal in effort despite the trib season occurring through the winter.....and all the hunting seasons and why DEC manages the trout and salmon fishery as a 12 month a year entity.

 

Also DEC does river census every year in the salmon river, but only every five years on all the rest of the tribs from west to East. 2019 through spring of 2020 the trib effort was extremely high when they caught the entire trib landscape.

 

 

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[GAMBLER]

2 hours ago, King Davy said:

Yes I agree 2020, 19 and 17 had effect on boating hours. I’m looking at the state of the lake numbers reported each spring. Those are for trout and salmon trips only. (I think bass as well). They aren’t nearly 900k hours. That number might be all fishing trips to include pan fish pike etc. BUT it’s a great point that both the open water fishing, and the trib season are no worse than equal in effort despite the trib season occurring through the winter.....and all the hunting seasons and why DEC manages the trout and salmon fishery as a 12 month a year entity.

 

Also DEC does river census every year in the salmon river, but only every five years on all the rest of the tribs from west to East. 2019 through spring of 2020 the trib effort was extremely high when they caught the entire trib landscape.

 

 

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The lake creel survey is also a joke.  I have not been stopped by the creel guys in years.  The hours are very low compared to what they actually are.  The trib data is skewed by snaggers.  I don't think you can classify illegal activity as angler hours since they are not "anglers",  

[Traveling Circus]

The lake creel survey guys didn't stop me this year either, but I don't know that they weren't working some other ports....... and this year with covid concerns, I don't blame them. Perhaps their efforts were scaled back to minimize their exposure to the disease. Rightfully so. 

[GAMBLER]

9 minutes ago, Traveling Circus said:

The lake creel survey guys didn't stop me this year either, but I don't know that they weren't working some other ports....... and this year with covid concerns, I don't blame them. Perhaps their efforts were scaled back to minimize their exposure to the disease. Rightfully so. 

I agree Mike but it has been years.  The only time I have even see them on Sandy was two years ago when I took my kid down to feed the fish in the pens at 6pm on a Tuesday when the lake had 4-6's on it.  

[Legacy]

35 minutes ago, Traveling Circus said:

The lake creel survey guys didn't stop me this year either, but I don't know that they weren't working some other ports....... and this year with covid concerns, I don't blame them. Perhaps their efforts were scaled back to minimize their exposure to the disease. Rightfully so. 

 

No lake creel survey this year... covid...

[GAMBLER]

Lets compare angler hours to revenue.  I would bet the farm, the lake makes more $ than the tribs for the state and local economies.  If you add up all the money spent on charters, licenses, lodging,  tackle, electronics, slips fees, repairs, up keep, boat purchases, gas, lodging, launch fees, ect. The average trib angler has a couple rods, waders and a box of lures.  

[whaler1]

There is no way in hell you can take any angler hours for 2017, 2019, and 2020. As " Data"... High water in 2017, and 2019 kept many ramps closed and many people off the lakes ... Marinas were flooded... ECT...
Now look at this year... China Virus... Charter Industry took a big hit.. Many many people cancelling from out of town due to our Governor's quarantine orders. On top
Of all of that, I had cancellations due to out of town guests not feeling safe in Rochester due to the Riots...


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Hey hey hey, they were peaceful protests! 🤮


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[King Davy]

The value to the lake shore communities is the river season is 8 months long. And lots of local and out of state visitors who are spending their dollars on the very same food lodging,gas and tackle. It’s cash flow to these places that otherwise would turn them into ghost towns in the winter and early spring.

 

At the end of the day the important thing is there is cash flow in the state from this fishery 12 months a year which allows many of businesses involved to keep their doors open instead of having a seasonal business.

 

I’m sure the one thing we have in common is we all appreciate having this year long fishery. It’s a welcome relief from the daily trials and tribulations.

 

Out fishing the G today, one fish, marked a ton. Saw a couple others caught. Sounds like up the river is starting to heat up. All the best folks.

 

 

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[GAMBLER]

11 minutes ago, King Davy said:

The value to the lake shore communities is the river season is 8 months long. And lots of out of state visitors who are spending the same dollars on the very same food lodging,gas and tackle. It’s cash flow to these places that otherwise would turn them into ghost towns in the winter and early spring.

At the end of the day the important thing is there is cash flow in the state from this fishery 12 months a year which allows the businesses involved to keep their doors open instead of having a seasonal business.



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Other than the Salmon River, Oak and the Niagara (mostly charter drift trips not as many shore anglers), what tribs draw lots of tourism?  Sandy has some but Hamlin doesn't gain anything from it.  Outside of salmon season the numbers dwindle in huge amounts other than the Salmon River.  Very cold, snowy spells, even the Salmon River becomes a ghost town.  The 7 month charter season and 8 month rec season on the lake (some years longer depending on the spring) is EVERY port on the South shore.  

Edited September 25, 2020 by GAMBLER

[HB2]

So let's say the DEC decides to close the tribs from Sept 15 to Nov 15 . Basically no fishing as most pull their boats by then . 

 

For every action there is a reaction . And there is the law of unintended consequences . 

 

If I owned a lodge or was a river guide or tackle shop owner my new position would be this :

 

 

seeing how we can't fish for trib  kings anymore and financially benefit from it we fully expect the DEC to triple the amount of steelhead, Brown's,  and advance the Atlantic Salmon program we have been asking for . 

Kings are Nat reproducing at higher rates so why are we wasting valuable hatchery space and lake bait biomass on something we do not benefit from . 

 We feel this is the fair and equitable thing to do . 

 

So watch out what you wish for . 

 

 

 

[GAMBLER]

3 minutes ago, HB2 said:

So let's say the DEC decides to close the tribs from Sept 15 to Nov 15 . Basically no fishing as most pull their boats by then . 

 

For every action there is a reaction . And there is the law of unintended consequences . 

 

If I owned a lodge or was a river guide or tackle shop owner my new position would be this :

 

 

seeing how we can't fish for trib  kings anymore and financially benefit from it we fully expect the DEC to triple the amount of steelhead, Brown's,  and advance the Atlantic Salmon program we have been asking for . 

Kings are Nat reproducing at higher rates so why are we wasting valuable hatchery space and lake bait biomass on something we do not benefit from . 

 We feel this is the fair and equitable thing to do . 

 

So watch out what you wish for . 

 

 

 

Closing the Salmon River down until egg take is complete is preserving the future of the fishery for EVERY salmon fishermen trib, pier or lake.  If it was a normal fall with decent water, it wouldn't be an issue. Without the salmon run, the Salmon River businesses will be gone.  A couple week shutdown will hurt but it would be worse to not have the king fishery in the future at all.  Like I said before, look at the Lake Huron situation.  Once booming fishing towns are now ghost towns.  I have directly talked with guys that have lived it on  Huron.  The low water levels is already going to effect natural reproduction.  Also stocking cuts will effect natural reproduction (the less kings running the river, the less spawning that will occur, and the less fish will be naturally reproduced).  

[King Davy]

Gambler you are WAY misinformed. Our Sandy is a Brown Trout Destination. People from as far away as Oregon, Montana, and every state in the NE. Out fitters from Colorado run trips to our own back yard all of Oct and Nov. we have the biggest on Avg brown trout in the US.

 

The Genny Had the highest catch rates of steelhead per angler hour of all our rivers. All our tailwater fisheries there are 7 in total fish fish from Sept to end of April. Candidly they actually fish way into May if we have our usual slow spring warm up.

 

There are currently 23 rivers along the South Shore that get steelhead stocked. Most of those streams get a run of brown trout. The eastern tribs not as much but from Sodus west every river, stream and trickle gets fished every day for at least until the smaller streams ice up for our brown trout.

 

The tail water tribs are fished right to May. Take a drive to the salmon river in Feb when the temp is near or below 0 and the parking lots are full if the bite is on.

 

The reason DEC was good with reducing the brown trout creel limit from 3 to 1 on our tribs is during their stream census when the agent talks to the folks fishing and crunched the numbers they realized this is the largest fall winter brown trout destination in the US. Bar none. And anglers are coming from as far away as the west coast. And several other countries not to just mean Canada.

 

Last year’s steelhead fishery on the Salmon had anglers from 39 states, and 8 different countries.

 

You guys seem to be basing all your understanding of this huge program on the six week salmon run. The real serious trib anglers show up in full force as soon as the browns and steelhead arrive. Normally by Columbus Day and they’ll be here till the opening of Turkey season.

 

The Oak for its mile of wadable stream has the highest angler concentration in that mile of water than probably any other river in the NE and possibly the US when it’s brown trout time. You can’t find 10 feet to fish most days. And over 50% of the cars during that time frame are from out of state.

 

It’s grown in leaps and bounds since 2004 when the state reduced the steelhead creel on the tribs from three to one.

 

While there are guides working any and all these rivers the majority are bank guiding not boat fishing. And their dance cards are full.

 

But don’t take my word for it simply call the DEC and get the data.

 

 

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[GAMBLER]

17 minutes ago, King Davy said:

Gambler you are WAY misinformed. Our Sandy is a Brown Trout Destination. People from as far away as Oregon, Montana, and every state in the NE. Out fitters from Colorado run trips to our own back yard all of Oct and Nov. we have the biggest on Avg brown trout in the US.

 

The Genny Had the highest catch rates of steelhead per angler hour of all our rivers. All our tailwater fisheries there are 7 in total fish fish from Sept to end of April. Candidly they actually fish way into May if we have our usual slow spring warm up.

 

There are currently 23 rivers along the South Shore that get steelhead stocked. Most of those streams get a run of brown trout. The eastern tribs not as much but from Sodus west every river, stream and trickle gets fished every day for at least until the smaller streams ice up for our brown trout.

 

The tail water tribs are fished right to May. Take a drive to the salmon river in Feb when the temp is near or below 0 and the parking lots are full if the bite is on.

 

The reason DEC was good with reducing the brown trout creel limit from 3 to 1 on our tribs is during their stream census when the agent talks to the folks fishing and crunched the numbers they realized this is the largest fall winter brown trout destination in the US. Bar none. And anglers are coming from as far away as the west coast. And several other countries not to just mean Canada.

 

Last year’s steelhead fishery on the Salmon had anglers from 39 states, and 8 different countries.

 

You guys seem to be basing all your understanding of this huge program on the six week salmon run. The real serious trib anglers show up in full force as soon as the browns and steelhead arrive. Normally by Columbus Day and they’ll be here till the opening of Turkey season.

 

The Oak for its mile of wadable stream has the highest angler concentration in that mile of water than probably any other river in the NE and possibly the US when it’s brown trout time. You can’t find 10 feet to fish most days. And over 50% of the cars during that time frame are from out of state.

 

It’s grown in leaps and bounds since 2004 when the state reduced the steelhead creel on the tribs from three to one.

 

While there are guides working any and all these rivers the majority are bank guiding not boat fishing. And their dance cards are full.

 

But don’t take my word for it simply call the DEC and get the data.

 

 

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Sandy gets guys but not big numbers.  I drive by all the time.  A couple cars at each bridge.  I used to spend a lot of time trib fishing (mostly on Sandy, the Genny and the Oak) with Jason Franz up until a couple years ago.    Limited access and nothing in Hamlin to spend money on in the town.  Where are they staying on Hamlin Dave?  Last time I checked, there were no hotels in Hamlin.....  A few years back, the brown run was dismal on Sandy during the fall run and the creek was a ghost town.  The Genny has the best catch rate because all the fish are stuffed in a short section of river before the falls.  It gets some guys but the limited water and crime keeps most people away.  After the salmon run, the Genny has WAY less activity.  The DEC does not release data on revenue for both. If they did, you would see lake guys spend more money, and bring more money to the fishing businesses lake wide not just the major tribs.  23 rivers on the South shore that get stocked?  Black, Salmon, Oswego, Genesee, and the Niagara are the only "Rivers" I can think of.  Just because the trib gets stocking does not mean its a tourist destination.  Look at the number of Charter boats in the major ports on Lake O.  Charters running trips almost everyday (some guys like Vince running doubles) of the season with 4-6 clients on the boat.  Sit at 4C's marina on a Saturday in the summer and watch the charter parade return to port.  Tons of people.  I think you are basing your lake knowledge on your failed charter career.  If you were successful, you would know how many guys are on the lake all summer. 

[whaler1]

Boom


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[Frogger]

Ouch, “ Fred he’s more than just a lure maker”......


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[TyeeTanic]

On 9/24/2020 at 10:50 AM, Yankee Troller said:

 

I've never fished Canadian rivers, but I am told they get closed to fishing at some point. Maybe it's sections of the river that get closed to protect the fish in it. As far as fishing stagers in the lake goes the fish is still in the lake and has to actually "bite" your presentation. Fishing for them in a ditch with very little flow is not ethical given a large percentage are taken illegally.

 

 

Yankee, well, what is happening is what you stated in your second sentence.  From the river mouth to a certain point, the rivers are fishable (legally). But north of a certain point on all rivers I know (I don't know them all, but a lot of them), it's declared fish sanctuary.  No one can fish above that point legally.  Some of the sanctuaries aren't that far from the lake, others are way up the tributary.

 

Lately, the local towns have been prohibiting access to the rivers ... but that isn't from the Ministry of Resources.  They are either concerned with COVID or they are concerned about the garbage left behind by anglers.  So fishing isn't prohibited in the river, but fishing from the shore (the land the city owns) is prohibited.  Still, there are many tributaries to fish in Canada.

 

I get what you are saying about catching a salmon in a ditch ... but let's be fair here.  Those staging fish are there to do one thing ... spawn.  So why target them at all. I'd say if we are all going to be serious about closing the rivers to spawning salmon, then fishing them within say 1/2 mile of the river mouth should also be banned ... because whether a pissed off salmon takes your plug or not ... we all know a spawning salmon is being targeted. 

[King Davy]

Yeah Brian I sit on a panel that just got this data Tuesday night on steelhead fishing on the tribs . But the best thing for you to do is call Scott Prindle at the Cortland office and ask for the 2019 to 2020 trib data. It’s their reports to make public not mine.

Vince is on this panel as well and he can comment how many bank anglers he sees every season on little 18 mile as well as the Niagara. He mentioned in the meeting of the significant usage in Niagara county.

Scott has a break down of angler usage on every stream they surveyed from the 18 mile to the black. The numbers don’t lie. And you might be very surprised of the Sandy numbers.

If the trib fishery was so small DEC wouldn’t be making significant reg changes. They did it to maintain viable fishing on the tribs for its long season.

To ensure you and anyone else who has doubts simply reach out to the State.

At the end of the day if the trib season wasn’t a viable part of the fishery DEC, USGS and USF&W would’t be spending so many hours on stream rehab projects, water quality impact studies as they have. Nor would the New York Power Authority just start a base flow program this past Saturday through the Oak and Sandy to induce fish in now and through the end of the canal closure in Nov.



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[King Davy]

Since you wanted to take a personal shot at me Brian...For the record. My part time charter career lasted 22 years . 1979 through 2001. Now I fish the lake with friends probably between 10 to 15 times a season. Was just out today. Before the issues in 17,19,and 20 lake usage was much lower than the hey days of the 80’s and 90’s. (When I was running my failed part time charter business 50 to 70 trips a year)

 

I chose to sell my business to do three things. Travel with my high level athlete daughter to watch her play premier soccer and college basketball all over the US.

 

Started a fly fishing school we still run today for wounded and disabled Vets with Oasis Adaptive Sports and Project Healing Waters, and annual fly fishing seminars for women recovering from breast cancer....

 

Third, travel the world to fish.

From the Arctic Circle to the Seychelles, and do some seasonal guiding/trip hosting in Alaska.

 

Please buy my recent book I published in 2019 “Fishing Adventures on the Fly with Dave & Lindsay Agness” on either Amazon or Barnes and Noble. I need the money to recover from my failed Charter business.

 

 

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[Gill-T]

Wow, this is getting spicy!  My suggestion to close the Salmon River from October 15th to November 15th was to close it to killing fish but not fishing. Catch and release river-wide for one month. 

[HB2]

When I drive from  Holley to my Sandy cottage  , which is a lot , I drive by all the bridges on the way down on propose to see how many guys are fishing . 

 

If the water is at all decent , some of the bridges are packed  from Oct till spring if the creek is fishable . 

 

There were cars parked today   on 2 of the lower bridges 

 

 

And half or more are from out of state . 

[Hopkinz]

4 hours ago, King Davy said:

Since you wanted to take a personal shot at me Brian...For the record. My part time charter career lasted 22 years . 1979 through 2001. Now I fish the lake with friends probably between 10 to 15 times a season. Was just out today. Before the issues in 17,19,and 20 lake usage was much lower than the hey days of the 80’s and 90’s. (When I was running my failed part time charter business 50 to 70 trips a year)

 

I chose to sell my business to do three things. Travel with my high level athlete daughter to watch her play premier soccer and college basketball all over the US.

 

Started a fly fishing school we still run today for wounded and disabled Vets with Oasis Adaptive Sports and Project Healing Waters, and annual fly fishing seminars for women recovering from breast cancer....

 

Third, travel the world to fish.

From the Arctic Circle to the Seychelles, and do some seasonal guiding/trip hosting in Alaska.

 

Please buy my recent book I published in 2019 “Fishing Adventures on the Fly with Dave & Lindsay Agness” on either Amazon or Barnes and Noble. I need the money to recover from my failed Charter business.

 

 

 Boom...

 

 Hop

 

 

 

 

 

[whaler1]

Uncle


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[Hopkinz]

13 hours ago, whaler1 said:

Uncle


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No offense intended, I'm just playin...

 

Hop

[whaler1]

Salmon in Sandy


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