New SalmonAngler/Gear questions

[Odie 1]

Hi Everyone.  I have been reading this site for about a year, lots of helpful advice.  Need some details on reels/wire.

I am going to buy the Okuma cv 30D convector reels.  I can get them at Tacke Haven prespooled with 150 yards of 20lb mono backing and 600 feet of wire.  Is the 20lb mono sufficient or do I need 30lb?  Also it does not say what wire it is and have read there is 7 wire, 19 etc.  I am pretty clueless what to get.??  So not sure if I should buy prespooled?

I am planning on running dipseys on the wire and then probably one or two downriggers

Can i go with the 20 Okuma reel for the downrigger?

Otherwise going to get Okuma GLT rods, twilley tips.  That at least my

Initial plan after studying this site. 

Thanks for any all advice on the reel/backing/wire issue and anything else for new Lake Ontario angler.

[Sk8man]

A lot of different ways to go with this but most of us use 1000 ft of 7 strand wire, some use 1000 ft of 19 strand. Basically the 7 strand isn't as kink resistant and may develop curly ques more easily than 19 strand stainless wire but the 19 strand has finer filament wires composing it that can break without noticing them and it is "springyier". It is also easier on the guides and tips of the rods.  If mono backing is used it is usually to protect the spool and keep the wire from nesting unevenly on the spool and a short length of 40 lb or so used (e..g. 50 ft or so). One problem with pre-spooled wire is you don't know who put it on  (and whether competently or not). The wire should be put on under even tension and started at the center of the spool and spread evenly across the spool. It is also helpful after it is loaded on the reel to attach a weight or diver without anything else on it while in the boat and running out about half to three quarters of the wire under tension (carefully and slowly). This will allow the wire to be evenly nested on the spool under the right tension and can save you headaches later on.

I believe the 30 size reel will hold the 1,000 ft of wire. The Okuma GLT rods should be OK for the riggers and could be used for wire but they have soft tip action and are not really the best choice for wire rods. Stiffer rods seem to better serve that purpose from 6 1/2 to 9 ft or so (twilli tip or roller tip can be used). Often if multiple wire rods are used the shorter ones are used on the inside the longer on the outside. The Okuma 20's or 30's should work OK for the riggers and many folks use either 30 to 40 lb Berkely Big Game mono or Bloodrun SeaFlee in 30 lb test for their main line with fluoro leaders or 20 lb or so for Lake O (can be lighter in the Spring for browns). Just suggestions as there are many ways of going about this with good results and depending on your wallet P.S. ANY wire used should always be kept under tension to avoid problems.

Edited November 21, 2021 by Sk8man

[tuffishooker]

Lot of detail for an apparent newbe ! 20 lb. mono of fluro works fine for salmon ; as posted can go lighter for spring browns maybe 12 lb. We have stopped using wire braid is easier for us but use what works for us ! IMO after 34 years fishing on the south shore tackle did not mare much difference to us ie. what was at the end of the tackle starting with quality swivels and the bait [ lures ] changing every year is the bottom line for us !

Captain Dan Keating has several books on salmon fishing , the latest is " Big Water Wisdom " with   detailed Q & A . His expertise is on Lake Michigan but the general advice still works ! 

 

[tuffishooker]

ps. salmon fishing ain't cheap so bring money !

[Odie 1]

Thanks for the input so far.  I may spool the reels myself or perhaps Fat Nancy will do it...they seem to be a reputable bait/tackle shop.

Back quickly to the rods...so the GLT okuma are not good choice for running wire dipseys? I have seen some folks use blue diamond rods or of course other pricey rods.  I live in PA near Pittsburgh so I prob will only make it up for one trip a year or so.  So figure I don't need the top of line takle...but still want to make decent choices.  Appreciate some rod recommendations for wire dipseys.

Also, from my extensive reading of this site it seemed like the consesus was to use wire over braid due to the fleas.  Is that correct?

Is a twilli tip needed at all if say i go up for 5 days a year?  Wasn't sure if it helped reeling or just saved the eyelets.

Thanks again.  I do fish Lake Erie frequently so I am not a total newbie to Great Lakes....but this salmon fishing on Lake Ontario seems a bit more complicated so just trying to keep it simple....(I have prob read a ton on this site...great place thanks again.)

Lastly, me and my wife rented a place in Olcott for next summer just to come up and fish....trying to get all my ducks in a row prior to....I have a couple more questions but will just get the rods figured out 1st.

(And yes....I see it can get pricey...rods and reels...500, fishhawk 800, lures

Oh and lets not forget fuel since prices are way up.)

 

[Vladislav]

Hey Odie,

 

Here are my 2 cents since I'd undergone in 2021 the conversion from super-newbie to beginner-level professional 

 

You absolutely have to get a FishHawk if you don't have it yet - this would be the number #1 stuff you need on your boat. I wish I would have gotten it sooner but I was pretty overwhelmed when I started trolling so it took me a season to just get my hand around this whole stuff...

 

Moving on... So first of all, I would not buy anything pre-spooled, I would do it all myself but I would seek an advice from your nearest tackle shop (where you will be buying all the stuff).

 

Next, for your reference, 2021 was my 1st season on wire (Lake Ontario north shore), I had a salmon spooling me almost 500ft in addition to 300ft wire out. So that amounts to 800 ft that is clearly more than offered on the pre-spooled option.

 

Therefore, with regards to the wire, get a 2 spools of 1000ft of 19-strand wire (I use from Torpedo), and put each onto the respective reel. On each reel, you would fit approximately 90-100 reel handle cranks of 50lb braid onto the Okuma size 30 reel covered by an electrical tape, then tie an Albright knot to the 1000ft wire spool and then reel all the 1000ft onto the reel under a tension. Practice wireline knot a few time it is very easy.

 

Alternatively, you can reel 1000 ft on the 2nd spool first, then tie an Albright knot to the wire (cover the wire end of the knot with a very thin heat shrink), then set a drag so that the wire remains under tension, and then spool it onto the 1st spool. When you get on the lake, optionally hook a dipsy and let all wire out, then reel it back it. I did not do it, I used the 2-spool process but many recommend you do that.

 

Many professionals use 7-strand wire but I decided to go 19-strand because as my local tackle shop recommended for a beginner to start with a little more user-friendly, it has higher lb-test, can survive light kinks and also I am folding the wire dipsy roller rods in 2 for transportation while leaving an arc in the wire (!!!).

 

With regards to the rods, you need a dedicated wire dipsy rod. If you can afford a roller rods, get the ones with the AFTCO rollers. For the downrigger, anything goes, the classic pro GLT are great but... if you want the good stuff, I would suggest an Okuma White Diamond 8.6ft medium (I use the same one but medium-light for Erie). You feel the fish differently with these rods and the fight is more enjoyable.

 

For your downrigger, you should get also a size 30 Okuma and spool it with 40 lb mono. The brand is not as important, I used Big Game, Triplefish, others use Ande etc. You can get by with size 20 for the spring and let's say 20-25lb mono but we usually do 40lb because 1) Salmons are big and flashers/meat are made with 40-50lb fluoro and there is enough force that pulls the main line and 2) Fleas are terrible.

 

Well, this will get you started... Good luck from ex-newbie 

Vlad

Edited November 21, 2021 by Vladislav

[Odie 1]

Thanks for all the above replies.  I think I am on my way.  I am def going to a fishhawk and the cv 30d convector reels.  Just got to decide on my poles.  I am leaning towards some of the okuma rods with swivel tips.

Not to open up another can of worms but last spring I think I read on this site that the 19 strand torpedo wire was a bit of a pain to put on.  Any thoughts on that?

But also if it is more forgiving for a beginner that will go along way towards making me choose it.

Thank you.

[Vladislav]

Like I said earlier, arbor knot on the spool electrical tape, ~100 handle cranks of braid and Albright knot to the wire. I never heard about 19-strand wire being worse than 7-strand in terms of pain to put on or otherwise. As I understand it, is that the 7-strand wire is cheaper and it dives a little deeper as it is a little thinner but it is 30lb test, not as tolerant to kinks as the 19-strand one and if 1 strand brakes, I am pretty sure you would rather have 18 more strands than 6 more strands to back it up.

Also not to open a can of worms or start an argument but I do notice that many experienced anglers and charter captains run 7-strand but one very nice gentleman who is a charter captain and tackle shop owner precisely for these reasons suggested that as a beginner, I would start with 19-strand 45 lb test wire that is more tolerant to kinks and so on... And perhaps later in in a few years I will be on 7-strand, you never know... So far I cannot complain on one advice that I regret following it. So I am just passing it on... Cheers

Edited November 22, 2021 by Vladislav

[Odie 1]

That sounds good to me....I have prob read too many posts since last year spring...lots of excellent tips.  I will give the 19 wire a try Vlad.  

I will post again once I buy some gear after the holidays also.

[Sk8man]

The 7 strand/19 strand/ braid issue is basically like many of the other things a "personal preference" issue. Each of them has strengths and weaknesses depending on what someone considers a "priority" for them. I've been using various wire options for over 50 years and none of them are "perfect" but depending on what they are used for, the care given them, the proper installation on the reels, and proper eyes and tips used on the rods any of it works once you get used to it. seven strand cuts through the water a bit better than 19 strand but it is also harder on the equipment and either a high quality roller tip (stainless) is needed or a twilli tip (the much cheaper option but a different feel to it), can develop curly ques and kinks when precautions are not taken in its care, can cut into or cut through cheap roller tip side plates. 19 strand on the other hand is not as hard on the eyelets or rod tips and generally less damaging to rod guides and tips but can be a bit "unwieldy) in that it is "springy" without spool memory, but it's compositional filaments are very fine and can break and weaken the wire without it being very apparent visually. The use of crimps on wire brings another  potential concern if not properly done and is a main reason wire knots are used with the wire by many folks. Improper crimping can create weak spots at either juncture (end) of the crimp connection by allowing the wire to wiggle back and forth on the edge of it weakening the wire and potentially breaking strands over time. Crimping too hard at the ends of the crimp can also damage the wire and weaken it and both types of wire can be vulnerable to this. The advice that was given about using the 19 strand for a beginner or novice was probably related to the fact that it may be less prone to kinking and when not used to 7 strand use and maintenance 19 strand could be  less problematic ; not that it is necessarily "better". A lot of people prefer braid over wire of either type, but again there are strengths and weaknesses. Braid cuts through the water with reduced "blowback", kinking isn't a real problem, it is easier on the hands but over time can also saw into rod eyelets and tips nearly like 7 strand especially found on poorer quality rods. When using smaller diameter braid like 30 or 40 lb test the braid can nest in the edge of a roller tip and cut off conributing to the donation of equipment to Mother Nature. The biggest general drawback to using braid especially in smaller diameters is that water fleas easily accrue on it during flea season and depending on type of flea harder to remove from the line (the Fishhook type of fleas seems harder to remove than the Spiny waterfleas). Braid may need to be replaced more frequently than wire that is carefully taken care of.

Edited November 23, 2021 by Sk8man

[Odie 1]

Appreciate all that data SK8man....I use braid on Lake Erie but we don't seem to have any flea issues.  That plus the fact that so many anglers on this site seem to love wire divers I sorta feel I need to just try them and get a little experience under my belt.

With regards to the fleas....what months do the little buggers tend to be bad?  We are coming up in mid July to the Olcott area.  Wasn't sure if they would be there at that time.

[Sk8man]

The flea season varies from year to year and the concentrations in the lake vary in their distribution as well, but usually when the water temp in in the 60's and higher they are present and last until temps go back down usually in the early Fall. They are intermittent in the lake though for whatever reason and sometimes they don't seem to be as problematic but when they highly concentrate they can be terrible and prevent you from retrieving your line without a lot of hassle especially when you have a good fish on and they can make a mess of your boat as well. Best of luck in whatever you decide to do and don't let it deter you from having some fun

Edited November 24, 2021 by Sk8man

[Odie 1]

Hi again...got a few more questions I hadn't thought of since last time.  I received quite a few spoons for Christmas but then was reading alot of folks like flies.  Do you typically run both flies and spoons at the same time?  I will prob have one rigger and 4 or 5 wire divers out.

What are some good flies to pick up as far as colors or names?  

And...prob shoulda asked this prior to booking our vacation...how is fishing out of Olcott mid july typically? Kings/cohos and steelhead around then? One more than the other.

Thanks for any tips!

 

[Odie 1]

Oh...one more item..are the trolling flies basically one size/same pound test line all rigged up etc?   Thanks again.  

[Sk8man]

Yes you can run flies and spoons at the same time on different dipsy setups or from other types of rigs such as downriggers or board lines.  Fishing on lake O varies from year to year greatly but Olcott area should have some fish at that time but you may have to travel deep to find them especially the steelies.. I make my own flies so I don't follow all the names of the different fly brands. As far as colors I have a lot of luck on white or green flies or a combination of them.

Most of the commercial flies are usually rigged and tied with 40 or 50 lb fluorocarbon and under most conditions it suffices. I tie my own with 50 lb big game mono to provide a little stretch to help absorb potential shock from king hits.

 

Just starting out you probably don't want to run 4-5 wire dipsies at once. Start with 2 and run other stuff along with them. It takes some experience to run that many dipsies at once without getting into trouble.

Edited December 28, 2021 by Sk8man

[Chuck Smth]

On 11/21/2021 at 6:32 AM, tuffishooker said:

ps. salmon fishing ain't cheap so bring money !

 Try bass fishing, it makes salmon trolling look pretty darned affordable, 

[UNREEL]

Check out the trolling gear for sale by “troubles”in the classifieds. Flies and rigged tournament style hooks at a good value are just an example of what he has for sale. Very easy guy to deal with also

[TyeeTanic]

On 11/20/2021 at 11:16 PM, Sk8man said:

A lot of different ways to go with this but most of us use 1000 ft of 7 strand wire, some use 1000 ft of 19 strand. Basically the 7 strand isn't as kink resistant and may develop curly ques more easily than 19 strand stainless wire but the 19 strand has finer filament wires composing it that can break without noticing them and it is "springyier". It is also easier on the guides and tips of the rods.  If mono backing is used it is usually to protect the spool and keep the wire from nesting unevenly on the spool and a short length of 40 lb or so used (e..g. 50 ft or so). One problem with pre-spooled wire is you don't know who put it on  (and whether competently or not). The wire should be put on under even tension and started at the center of the spool and spread evenly across the spool. It is also helpful after it is loaded on the reel to attach a weight or diver without anything else on it while in the boat and running out about half to three quarters of the wire under tension (carefully and slowly). This will allow the wire to be evenly nested on the spool under the right tension and can save you headaches later on.

I believe the 30 size reel will hold the 1,000 ft of wire. The Okuma GLT rods should be OK for the riggers and could be used for wire but they have soft tip action and are not really the best choice for wire rods. Stiffer rods seem to better serve that purpose from 6 1/2 to 9 ft or so (twilli tip or roller tip can be used). Often if multiple wire rods are used the shorter ones are used on the inside the longer on the outside. The Okuma 20's or 30's should work OK for the riggers and many folks use either 30 to 40 lb Berkely Big Game mono or Bloodrun SeaFlee in 30 lb test for their main line with fluoro leaders or 20 lb or so for Lake O (can be lighter in the Spring for browns). Just suggestions as there are many ways of going about this with good results and depending on your wallet P.S. ANY wire used should always be kept under tension to avoid problems.

I agree with this, but a few additional thoughts.

I'd want to know how they joined the wire to the mono ... I wouldn't want that wire cutting through the mono line, otherwise goodbye to everything.

 

The CV 30D for sure holds 1000 ft of 7 strand wire ... that's what I used on all my setups.

 

I'd still go for the CV 30D for the downriggers ... if you're putting on 30# mono (which is what I recommend, 40# I find starts getting a bit too stiff and thick) ... you'll want a 30 size reel to get a decent amount of mono on the reel.

[Hillside]

22 minutes ago, UNREEL said:

Check out the trolling gear for sale by “troubles”in the classifieds. Flies and rigged tournament style hooks at a good value are just an example of what he has for sale. Very easy guy to deal with also

 

X2  -  I bought some stuff from him and he is very easy to deal with.

[jeb1340]

Did you get the rods and reels already? I have 2 wire roller rods and two rigger rods that I might be selling soon

[Sk8man]

3 hours ago, Hillside said:

 

X2  -  I bought some stuff from him and he is very easy to deal with.

Excellent info. Greg Dale (Troubles) makes great fishing rigs including flies. Very good quality and prompt service. I have been happy with quality and prices etc.

[Vladislav]

@Odie 1 If you are asking about July, then it is possible that on your end (we are north shore) the fish will already be deep due to the water being very warm. In 2021 we (north shore) had one day where a big rain dumped lots of warm water and the fish were like 120+ft down off Toronto shore. In days like these you may end up running 4x rods on 2x deep riggers and 2x magnum dipsies, I would run all of them meat rigs. Also, 10 colors leadcore or whatever long copper/weighted steel you want to run with a magnum spoon. You pay attention to what is biting and change your presentation accordingly.

 

There is always a plan B - you can run to the blue zone (400 fow) and get fish over there 40-60ft down. The temperature over there is more or less stable and is not affected in such manner as the shorelines.

 

Depending on the number of rods out (i.e. number of anglers) and the time of the day and where we are in the season, I usually start with roughly an equal mix of meat, flies and spoons. Early morning riggers and dipsies have roughly equally split flasher+meat, flasher+fly or spin doctor+fly or dodger+spoon combos. I also run at least 1 SWR. Any fly that is a glow with a mix of green/yellow colors and matching flasher/spin doctor would do just fine. I tie them myself with 40lb seaguar STS, 22-24 inches long for an 8-inch attractor.

 

Later in the morning when more sinking lines could be running, they are all mostly spoons or may be 4-inch dodger with a small fly, and I keep the meat on the deeper lines and may be 1 fly throughout the morning. The colors are typically something that has glow and/or UV with green/yellow, black dots, ladder etc.

 

 

[Odie 1]

Thanks for all the great replies/info.  I am still looking at gear/rods and reels but yes I think I am going to get the CV 30d reels.  Not sure on the rods yet as still looking at twilly tips vs roller.

 

As for Olcott...how far off shore would be good fishing?   Is the blue zone a different section of lake or just far offshore?

I normally walleye fish Lake Erie anywhere from 5 to 8 miles out but me and my wife are doing this Olcott trip so she won't be too happy if I tell her its 15 or 20 miles out:).  I have 

maps somewhere (prob in the boat..which is 23 ft WA Sea Fox btw.  Has been good boat for me so far.)

Anyways, just want to make sure we are at least within striking distance of some fish...or if we should cosider other locales.  We aren't very picky but be nice to boat some variety of salmon.

We did ponder taking a charter for our 1st trip up there but thought we would just give it a whirl on our own since we have the boat.  Salmon fishing def is more $ $ indeed and more involved than Lake Erie walleye.

Thanks again...be pretty lost without all this site.  

[Odie 1]

Also...do you run flies/spoons and meat rigs all at once? I had read meat rigs needed to be trolled slower than flies/ spoons.  

[Vladislav]

Yeah many of us would be lost without experienced anglers and charter captains and their advice. I'd be for sure  . But there is also a practical experience - you need to get out and apply what you learn and build/develop your own habits etc... Most of my stuff was really "baked" in 2021, which is my 3rd season. It does take time...

 

What many of us do is that if the bite is slow, and it happens, we just take a 10-15 mile ride to 350 fow  depending on where we launch from and work deeper towards 425-450 fow (border with USA). Actually if you draw a line between Olcott and Toronto, we take a 20 min ride towards the border almost across this line.

 

I generally fish southwestern shore Toronto to Niagara because I live ~1 hr drive SW of lake Ontario but at times we go further north shore or close to the BAR. However, you have to be ready for these days because the weather is very unpredictable and winds move things around. Everything can change overnight. So your only choice to catch fish may be blue zone on some days. The most important thing is to pick up a good weather.

 

I had one trip in October where we trolled to the BAR and we had absolutely nothing for a few hours. Then we packed, went deep out parallel to the border towards 420 fow, changed spoons, flies, juggled rods etc... We got a 16lb rainbow on that day btw... What a monster!  

 

Yes, I run spoons and flies and meat at once. More meat than flies in the summer hot days however. Usually before I go out, I spend a little time in the evening researching the fishing reports and go over the water temperature map. So by the time I get behind the wheel at let's say at 3 am, I already know 1) Where I will launch from, 2) What rods go out first, i.e. what depth I think I will target and 3) What would be my initial presentation. I might just say "well if all the fishing reports are so bad, let's just go blue zone tomorrow". I mean, I go really crazy on this and I am going very detail the day before hence my fishing trips in 2021 have been really rewarding.

Trolling speed-wise, it is true that some spoons perform better at certain speeds but this is something you would have to just "live with" if you have a multi-bait presentation. You cannot run too fast with meat. I tried and the meat strips go crazy around the line... So I go slow and I never had an issue with meat and spoons, i.e. had bites on both. I am targeting 2.0-2.2 MPH at the ball when I am running anything on hot summer days but at times I go also 1.5-1.8 MPH. If fish is not in the mood, you need to go slow. And there is this trick and everyone knows when you slow down big for 30-60 seconds and then bring the speed back, and you watch the rods. 

 

Hope this helps. Happy New Year!

Vlad

Edited December 29, 2021 by Vladislav