DEC State of the Lake virtual meeting - Did you know about it?

[salmonella]

It was posted by LOTSA on its FB page on November 23. Over 700 people saw it.  

[Gill-T]

Lucky, I am surprised that you are surprised about the slight change in tactics for supporting the Atlantic restoration program. It would seem to me the DSR has their hands all over this change by stocking lower in the river (supports returns to DSR water) plus the fact pen rearing Atlantic’s would probably get zero volunteer support with the exception of the DSR on the Salmon River. Theses changes, it would seem, have your groups hands all over it. Not that it is a bad plan as something different needs to be attempted in order to bolster the dismissal returns thus far. 

[yogibare]

2 hours ago, Lucky13 said:

Yogibare, where do you get the idea that the Lake Ontario Committee members are County Delegates?    Have you ever seen a membership list or seen a press release about this group?  Prior to Steve LaPan's retirement, there was another Lake Ontario Committee, which consisted of 12 Americans and 12 Canadians, and this group was not chosen at the county level but to represent various stakeholder groups, so consisted mainly of charter captains and tributary anglers from all 4 regions, and served as input to Steve and Andy Miner for their role on the Great Lakes Fishery Commission.    We started meeting via zoom due to the logistics issues of getting such a large group to one place along our "inland sea", then Steve retired, and I, for one, never heard anything else.  I am sure some of the membership was moved on, I can't imagine Captains Songin or Perleoni not having a voice for the west end of the Lake.  But I also serve on our county Fisheries Advisory Board, and the existence of this new NYS group was news to us (2 of us were on the GLFC panel) when one of the members visited a meeting and started talking about the Atlantic Salmon Plan, which seems to me came out of the clear blue sky in light of the stocking reductions of the last 4 or so years.  I watched the Power Points, I must have dozed off as I don't recall anything about an increase in King Stocking.  Maybe this was added to the program as a " bone" to soften the memory of the stocking cuts and cushion the "new" Atlantic Salmon program.  At any rate, this will get discussed at the MCFAB meeting, via zoom, on Monday.

 

I agree with Rick about the poor communications, it was short notice, very poorly communicated, and there are much better times to get people's attention than Southern Zone Deer Season.  Unless you want to avoid the tough questions.

Two different groups Lucky 13. I said the Lake Ontario Task Group, which was pretty much hand-selected by DEC - four from each region of NY along the lake, representing 2 tributary/river guys and 2 lake guys. That is the group that DEC works with to develop new regulations for the lake and plans for the future before they even become proposals. Brainstorming sessions. You must know about this group if you are on the Monroe County FAB. For example, the representatives in Niagara County are Capt. Vince Pierleoni (lake and County Fish Board), Capt. Frank Campbell (Niagara River and county fish board), Joe Yaeger (president of LOTSA), and Scott Feltrinelli. They meet regularly with DEC. You refer to the international committee between the two countries that manage the lake. The Task Group I am referring to is not new. In fact, I believe it was formed before the international group. I know Capt. Vince is on that international group. Not sure who else. As far as the videos, under the Predator-Prey Management one, check out https://www.dec.ny.gov/fs/programs/press/LakeOntarioFisheries/PredatorPreyManagement.mp4 around the 6:25 minute mark. The total is 50,000 from NY and 50,000 from Ontario. No decision has been reached as to where those fish will be stocked. I asked that question during the video meeting. DEC would not just "throw a bone" without some solid science behind it. Yeah, I guess you dozed off ...

[King Davy]

Gill T No your statements on the Atlantic salmon changes are completely off.

 

DSR had nothing to do with any of this. This is a program change directed by Steve Hurst bureau chief of fisheries.

 

Landlocks are stocked at the mouth of Oak orchard. The returns to the Oak have been extremely successful ( see Scott Prindle’s trib report). The salmon river stocks have always been done up by the hatchery in hopes that as the fish migrated to the lake they would imprint.

 

However the salmon river has not enjoyed the consistency that Oak orchard has so DEC changed the stocking location to the river mouth.

The pen rearing of Landlocks again a Steve Hurst experiment. As far as volunteers to set up the pens and raise the fish the local trib groups up there has over 30 hands on deck.

[Gill-T]

I know there would be toothy predators waiting for Atlantic smolts trying to navigate downstream to the lake but has there been any discussion on removing the Black River dam so fish can move into Adirondack Park waters?

[King Davy]

I’m a member of the TU conservation council. We are in the process of working with DEC on several projects from the Adirondacks to the PA border. It encompasses everything from native species such as Brook trout to Landlocks to rivers and streams that currently hosts natural populations of trout. We have an extremely detailed Map of studies and investigations done by DEC on 100’s of watersheds with wild populations. 
 

These projects include ground breaking changes that will include things like dam removals where necessary.

 

while DEC continues as they have for the last 50+ years  to manage with the MNR the magnificent Lake Ontario sport fishery , there are lots of other fishery programs going on besides LO.

 

DEC, USF&W and USGS will always be working on native species. From wild natural opportunities to bolstering better results for stocked programs.

 

Hurst led the remaking of the inland tributaries plans the past 24 months for the first time in 30 years. The changes have been remarkable in the result in the early going. 
 

landlocks are a struggle everywhere in the US but science and new processes are never ending for the dedicated scientists that are driven to find success.

[Lucky13]

Well, Yogi, "County delegates" implies that the Counties had something to do with it, and the Counties had nothing to do with either group as you describe it. 

 

Gill, I'm all for more Atlantics, but if the goal is to get them sustaining, Sandy Creek hasn't got the temperatures.  Irondequoit Creek does.

[King Davy]

Ha ha Lucky I had that argument with DEC last year and brought back up on the zoom call. Irondequoit creek has more access than Sandy. Runs 30 river miles from LO . Has great summer temps for trout and salmon and actually produces wild steelhead and brown trout,  king and coho salmon. 

Has tons of canopy once out of the estuary that keeps temps in salmonid comfort ranges. Has several natural springs. Sandy runs through agricultural lands wide open fields little canopy , no natural springs, summer temps in the 80’s .

 

Landlock salmon grilse and adults are river fish. If they can find a river with suitable habitat they will enter in the spring and all summer long before spawning in late fall.

 

the Iron is that kind of river. Not Sandy.

[Capt Vince Pierleoni]

As a member of the Lake Ontario task force and the Niagara County Fishery Advisory board, I was not notified of this "State of the Lake" presentation. I have been patiently waiting for the January Task force meeting which has been a long time coming. 

As for that "bi national committee" , hopefully it has disbanded for good. It was most certainly the most ineffective and useful committee I have ever served on for many reasons.

I hope everyone has a great Christmas spent with family and friends.    

[yogibare]

12 hours ago, Lucky13 said:

Well, Yogi, "County delegates" implies that the Counties had something to do with it, and the Counties had nothing to do with either group as you describe it. 

 

Gill, I'm all for more Atlantics, but if the goal is to get them sustaining, Sandy Creek hasn't got the temperatures.  Irondequoit Creek does.

They sure as heck were picked to represent a region and for Region 9 that is Niagara County (although not all Region 9 reps are from Niagara). As I mentioned earlier, these were hand-selected by DEC to represent different aspects of the fishery (streams/River, rec anglers, charter industry). "County delegates" was probably a wrong term but they they still represent a particular area of the lake to serve as a voice. However, I still can't believe you never heard of this group because Steve Hurst and company are mentioning it all of the time whenever new proposals show up for the lake. Capt. Vince noted in a post here that they had received no advance notification of the virtual meeting as a group. 

[NiagaraFishingShow]

The Greater Niagara Fishing & Outdoor Expo this coming February 17 - 20, 2022 will provide an excellent opportunity to both hear from and talk directly to the DEC Lake Ontario decision makers. Click this link for more information on it 2022 Attractions | Greater Niagara Fishing & Outdoor Expo (niagarafishingexpo.com)

[schreckstoff]

It’s gonna be a long, painful winter for me if the only LOU discussion is who’s on what committee and who knew about what meeting. 
 

Heck I’ll even buy everyone on this thread a beer if we just agree to post about fishery mtgs (Niagara Show!), and get back to fun topics like:

-what kind of alewife yearclass did 2021 produce and why do you think that?

- why do we see bigger Goby die offs some years and how we might stop wasting that fish flesh?

- Yankee saw fleas (Byth) extra late In the fall, when that happened in the past Ale growth skyrocketed, it would be cool if the 2020YC got big in a hurry.

- or what causes annual  differences in Niagara River Smelt production?

- or KDs interesting point about Iron. Creek, (which makes sense to me). I get the potential estuarine predator hypothesis but what evidence supports that? science in the pacific north west provides strategies for minimizing that mortality source.

- anyone want to discuss LO dreissinid mussels dynamics? there have been some good papers come out recently on that topic, PM me if interested 

- or the idea that is constantly swirling through my head, doesn’t it seem useful for motivated anglers to pull a few seines each May to help figure out which tribs produce the most wild salmonids each year?

 

I’m ready for  Spring! all I’m seeing are tiny deer, Legacy send something bigger my way.

 

I thought I was going to have to say “Howard Tanner” three times to get Pierlioni to appear in the conversation, hope all is well in the West Cap!

 

Something Spectacular, 

bw, Schreckstoff

 

[Gill-T]

Brian, all you need to say is DEC and a ruckus starts. I am interested in the DCL where the alewives like to play. How is the plankton community holding up?  

[Capt Vince Pierleoni]

3 hours ago, schreckstoff said:

It’s gonna be a long, painful winter for me if the only LOU discussion is who’s on what committee and who knew about what meeting. 
 

Heck I’ll even buy everyone on this thread a beer if we just agree to post about fishery mtgs (Niagara Show!), and get back to fun topics like:

-what kind of alewife yearclass did 2021 produce and why do you think that?

- why do we see bigger Goby die offs some years and how we might stop wasting that fish flesh?

- Yankee saw fleas (Byth) extra late In the fall, when that happened in the past Ale growth skyrocketed, it would be cool if the 2020YC got big in a hurry.

- or what causes annual  differences in Niagara River Smelt production?

- or KDs interesting point about Iron. Creek, (which makes sense to me). I get the potential estuarine predator hypothesis but what evidence supports that? science in the pacific north west provides strategies for minimizing that mortality source.

- anyone want to discuss LO dreissinid mussels dynamics? there have been some good papers come out recently on that topic, PM me if interested 

- or the idea that is constantly swirling through my head, doesn’t it seem useful for motivated anglers to pull a few seines each May to help figure out which tribs produce the most wild salmonids each year?

 

I’m ready for  Spring! all I’m seeing are tiny deer, Legacy send something bigger my way.

 

I thought I was going to have to say “Howard Tanner” three times to get Pierlioni to appear in the conversation, hope all is well in the West Cap!

 

Something Spectacular, 

bw, Schreckstoff

 

Hey Schreck! You are going to pattern your career after certain hollyweird types--any notoriety whether it causes a ruckus or not--is good notoriety!

Now to the cool stuff. It seems like when Summer type weather drags on into late fall the fleas are definitely more noticeable throughout the lake late. As you know the alewives devour them but so do tiny pelagics. I'm sure it plays a role in whether certain natural spawned Kings, Coho, Steel, Lakers year classes survive well.

Currently there is a bumper crop of young smelt in the Niagara and at the river mouth. They are in the 2-3 inch range.

Dr Howard Tanner is a rock star in my book, I'm sure you devoured "Something Spectacular". 

I caught my saying--"wasted fish flesh" that you dropped. Always trying to light a fire under people aren't you?

Goby die offs. I think they are ultra prolific spawners but struggle with over population and upwelling temperature changes. When conditions allow their populations will explode and be susceptible if not enough predation by BTs, LTs, or Bass takes place. Its also entirely possible that Cormorants are making a big dent in goby populations and impacting where predators move to in an effort to feed on them.

Just say the word if you need a bit more venison for that family of yours.

Have a great Christmas!   

[schreckstoff]

Yeah good point regarding flaring tempers, those letters can raise my bp sometimes too.

 

I haven’t paid too much attention recently to the DCL (deep chlorophyll layer) but have to assume it’s still like u say, an important zone of productivity.  As nutrients and subsequently algae continues to decline there is less biomass at every trophic level especially fish and the predator-prey interactions intensify . You might like this paper : 

 

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0380133021001635

takehome, as I saw it was, that based on diatom record, LO is more or less back to a pelagic algal community that mimics pre-European colonization . 
 

VP- I hoped  I could coax an idea or 2 out of you. The length of summer idea makes total sense. while the lake is definitely getting warmer, the time period of stratification is also a lot more variable/longer, we wrote  a paper hypothesizing that phenomenon would also help lamprey in Superior (or any Lake) get bigger.over time. .

Goby are fascinating, your term prolific might even be an understatement. I agree Corms, YP. SMBs and others fish focus on them…but wouldn’t  that keep their densities low and work against overpopulation effects? Lord knows those fish eating feathered “beauties” don’t seem to be any less abundant these days. The upwelling is an idea we tossed around as well and makes sense, bunch of Goby forced into high density deep zones in late winter/spring, stress them out cause they ate all the mussels in the sizes they can crush, then temp changes push them over some tipping point. Speaking of Something Spectacular, One of the now retired scientists used to suggest crazy high sturgeon stocking to control Goby…I increasingly think that idea has legs, hell maybe we can someday even open a fishery for them! My sturgeon studying colleagues might faint if they read this but I lik restoration cause we can, fish for and eat those species again. 
 

Merry Christmas to you, the family and everyone. I might be taking you up on that offer if we don’t get some snow and cold weather. Managing one’s property with lots of late season food seems like a dumb idea when it’s this warm. 
 

-bw

[Gill-T]

Perhaps, you should research shape-shifting camouflage capable of hiding a large twig-snapping man in the woods making him invisible to deer!

[Legacy]

20 hours ago, schreckstoff said:

It’s gonna be a long, painful winter for me if the only LOU discussion is who’s on what committee and who knew about what meeting. 
 

Heck I’ll even buy everyone on this thread a beer if we just agree to post about fishery mtgs (Niagara Show!), and get back to fun topics like:

-what kind of alewife yearclass did 2021 produce and why do you think that?

- why do we see bigger Goby die offs some years and how we might stop wasting that fish flesh?

- Yankee saw fleas (Byth) extra late In the fall, when that happened in the past Ale growth skyrocketed, it would be cool if the 2020YC got big in a hurry.

- or what causes annual  differences in Niagara River Smelt production?

- or KDs interesting point about Iron. Creek, (which makes sense to me). I get the potential estuarine predator hypothesis but what evidence supports that? science in the pacific north west provides strategies for minimizing that mortality source.

- anyone want to discuss LO dreissinid mussels dynamics? there have been some good papers come out recently on that topic, PM me if interested 

- or the idea that is constantly swirling through my head, doesn’t it seem useful for motivated anglers to pull a few seines each May to help figure out which tribs produce the most wild salmonids each year?

 

I’m ready for  Spring! all I’m seeing are tiny deer, Legacy send something bigger my way.

 

I thought I was going to have to say “Howard Tanner” three times to get Pierlioni to appear in the conversation, hope all is well in the West Cap!

 

Something Spectacular, 

bw, Schreckstoff

 

 

 

Look, Anytime you want to buy me beer and talk Lake O or deer hunting count me in!

[Sweet Tee]

On 12/10/2021 at 6:13 PM, Gill-T said:

I know there would be toothy predators waiting for Atlantic smolts trying to navigate downstream to the lake but has there been any discussion on removing the Black River dam so fish can move into Adirondack Park waters?

 

Has there been legitimate conversations on this? Would love to see a discussion on that... There are 4 separate Dams from Watertown to Dexter.... Seems unrealistic but my oh my... what water that would open up 

[Tall Tails]

On 12/11/2021 at 4:47 PM, schreckstoff said:

Yeah good point regarding flaring tempers, those letters can raise my bp sometimes too.

 

I haven’t paid too much attention recently to the DCL (deep chlorophyll layer) but have to assume it’s still like u say, an important zone of productivity.  As nutrients and subsequently algae continues to decline there is less biomass at every trophic level especially fish and the predator-prey interactions intensify . You might like this paper : 

 

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0380133021001635

takehome, as I saw it was, that based on diatom record, LO is more or less back to a pelagic algal community that mimics pre-European colonization . 
 

VP- I hoped  I could coax an idea or 2 out of you. The length of summer idea makes total sense. while the lake is definitely getting warmer, the time period of stratification is also a lot more variable/longer, we wrote  a paper hypothesizing that phenomenon would also help lamprey in Superior (or any Lake) get bigger.over time. .

Goby are fascinating, your term prolific might even be an understatement. I agree Corms, YP. SMBs and others fish focus on them…but wouldn’t  that keep their densities low and work against overpopulation effects? Lord knows those fish eating feathered “beauties” don’t seem to be any less abundant these days. The upwelling is an idea we tossed around as well and makes sense, bunch of Goby forced into high density deep zones in late winter/spring, stress them out cause they ate all the mussels in the sizes they can crush, then temp changes push them over some tipping point. Speaking of Something Spectacular, One of the now retired scientists used to suggest crazy high sturgeon stocking to control Goby…I increasingly think that idea has legs, hell maybe we can someday even open a fishery for them! My sturgeon studying colleagues might faint if they read this but I lik restoration cause we can, fish for and eat those species again. 
 

Merry Christmas to you, the family and everyone. I might be taking you up on that offer if we don’t get some snow and cold weather. Managing one’s property with lots of late season food seems like a dumb idea when it’s this warm. 
 

-bw

Any chance your still working on the impact of the CISCO/Whitefish reintroduction and its impact on the food pyramid for recovering Alewife's population?  I still believe the reintroduction of the species has had a negative impact on alewife production and survivability.  

[GAMBLER]

On 12/11/2021 at 11:47 AM, schreckstoff said:

It’s gonna be a long, painful winter for me if the only LOU discussion is who’s on what committee and who knew about what meeting. 
 

Heck I’ll even buy everyone on this thread a beer if we just agree to post about fishery mtgs (Niagara Show!), and get back to fun topics like:

-what kind of alewife yearclass did 2021 produce and why do you think that?

- why do we see bigger Goby die offs some years and how we might stop wasting that fish flesh?

- Yankee saw fleas (Byth) extra late In the fall, when that happened in the past Ale growth skyrocketed, it would be cool if the 2020YC got big in a hurry.

- or what causes annual  differences in Niagara River Smelt production?

- or KDs interesting point about Iron. Creek, (which makes sense to me). I get the potential estuarine predator hypothesis but what evidence supports that? science in the pacific north west provides strategies for minimizing that mortality source.

- anyone want to discuss LO dreissinid mussels dynamics? there have been some good papers come out recently on that topic, PM me if interested 

- or the idea that is constantly swirling through my head, doesn’t it seem useful for motivated anglers to pull a few seines each May to help figure out which tribs produce the most wild salmonids each year?

 

I’m ready for  Spring! all I’m seeing are tiny deer, Legacy send something bigger my way.

 

I thought I was going to have to say “Howard Tanner” three times to get Pierlioni to appear in the conversation, hope all is well in the West Cap!

 

Something Spectacular, 

bw, Schreckstoff

 

Hopefully the 2021 year class is a good one.  Intake temps were still 50 degrees up until December 1st.  I will look back and see when the last time it was that warm this late in the year.  As of November 25th, we were running 3-6 degrees above the past couple years.

Edited December 13, 2021 by GAMBLER

[GAMBLER]

On 12/11/2021 at 4:47 PM, schreckstoff said:

Yeah good point regarding flaring tempers, those letters can raise my bp sometimes too.

 

I haven’t paid too much attention recently to the DCL (deep chlorophyll layer) but have to assume it’s still like u say, an important zone of productivity.  As nutrients and subsequently algae continues to decline there is less biomass at every trophic level especially fish and the predator-prey interactions intensify . You might like this paper : 

 

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0380133021001635

takehome, as I saw it was, that based on diatom record, LO is more or less back to a pelagic algal community that mimics pre-European colonization . 
 

VP- I hoped  I could coax an idea or 2 out of you. The length of summer idea makes total sense. while the lake is definitely getting warmer, the time period of stratification is also a lot more variable/longer, we wrote  a paper hypothesizing that phenomenon would also help lamprey in Superior (or any Lake) get bigger.over time. .

Goby are fascinating, your term prolific might even be an understatement. I agree Corms, YP. SMBs and others fish focus on them…but wouldn’t  that keep their densities low and work against overpopulation effects? Lord knows those fish eating feathered “beauties” don’t seem to be any less abundant these days. The upwelling is an idea we tossed around as well and makes sense, bunch of Goby forced into high density deep zones in late winter/spring, stress them out cause they ate all the mussels in the sizes they can crush, then temp changes push them over some tipping point. Speaking of Something Spectacular, One of the now retired scientists used to suggest crazy high sturgeon stocking to control Goby…I increasingly think that idea has legs, hell maybe we can someday even open a fishery for them! My sturgeon studying colleagues might faint if they read this but I lik restoration cause we can, fish for and eat those species again. 
 

Merry Christmas to you, the family and everyone. I might be taking you up on that offer if we don’t get some snow and cold weather. Managing one’s property with lots of late season food seems like a dumb idea when it’s this warm. 
 

-bw

Here is the last couple years of temps on 12/1.  I could get data back 30 more years but I would have to dig through paper files.  

2021 - 50 degrees

2020 - 48 degrees

2019 - 43 degrees

2018 - 45 degrees

2017 - 45 degrees

2016 - 50 degrees

2015 - 48 degrees

2014 - 44 degrees

2013 - 43 degrees

[Lucky13]

Brian, I have to laugh hearing the DEC concern about predation by esocids on out-migrating smolts in Irondequoit Creek.  When USGS and Monroe County proposed the use of the Irondequoit Creek Wetlands as a nutrient control area at the conclusion of the Nationwide Urban Runoff program in the early 80s, NYSDEC objected to the proposal to install a weir because the ponded area could provide habitat for predators to prey on smolts, too.  When the permit was finally granted after nearly 18 years, the objection was that the project would negatively impact esocid habitat and spawning.  So they have come 360%, and as I recall based on the opinion of one biologist, not on any data.  But say there are predators in IC, they are also there in Sandy, and the thermal regime in Sandy would appear to me to insure that survival of fry to smolt is highly unlikely, while the thermal regime of IC allows stocked fish to survive down into Ellison Park, and so might actually support Salar juveniles.   I also wonder if the discussion of spawning sites took into consideration the stream temperatures in July and August.  When the experimental stocking in Irondequoit Creek was done, the biologists said the fish would run and spawn in the fall.  They spawned in the fall, but they were in the stream the first year of return right after an early July rainstorm.  Many bellied up from thermal stress even in IC, and for subsequent seasons DEC closed the stream to fishing for the summer months.  I think it is guaranteed that this will occur in an even warmer stream like Sandy. 

[schreckstoff]

Tall tails, we are studying Cisco and Lake Whitefish but my teams are trying to understand how spawning habitat may limit those populations as opposed to their interactions with Alewife. Those 2 species have been in the lake forever, but the reintroduction you might be thinking of was with Bloater. Those are preyfish that live in the deeper LO habitats 100-300ft. Since the experimental reintroduction started, their numbers in the lake are very very low compared to Alewife and Smelt, most likely because they are getting eaten by all the trout and salmon (they are definitely a prey fish). we have a paper coming out about that and I can post it soon.
 

In Lake Michigan Bloater populations appear to coexist with Alewife. Bloater and alewife can eat the same food at some times of the year but Alewife can tolerate much warmer water and eat different plankton

 

LO history suggests that alewife do pretty well with or without Bloater. Alewife probably got into Lake O in the late 1860s when at the time Bloater were abundant. The few accounts i have read  suggest by 1880 or 1890s , Alewife were numerically dominant species in the lake. Bloater declined fast from 1950 to 1960 & the last one was caught in 1983 in our trawls until the experimental reintroduction started. 

Gambler, good call, I should look at how not normal these current  lake temps are based on history. Will report back on that one.

 

 

 

[Lucky13]

Brian,  Cisco were stocked by USF+WS in Irondequoit Bay and Sodus Bay for some amount of time (post 70, memory for numbers gets cloudy, why I like hard copy reports).  According to Web Persall, (Region 8 Fisheries Manager), last night, there are no longer Ciscoes going in, but Bloaters continue to be raised.   Maybe the Cisco program was discontinued when Mr. Johnson retired, but there is a gap in reporting, it would be nice to see the results of the project.  

[schreckstoff]

Lucky & TallTails, you are completely right, there was some experimental Cisco stocking by Tunison  in I-bay and Sodus Bay. I think there is a report on that will be available soon. The bloater stocking is the focus though.