Mono for divers/flashers

[sherman brown]

2 hours ago, Sk8man said:

Slide divers are a whole different matter as they are usually run in the upper part of the water column and excel at that in terms of stealth etc. but for running deeper Deep Divers are the way to go. Slide divers don't offer much if any advantage in that regard.

yeah, but the weight's what gets the diver down so why wouldn't the 7 oz weight kit you can get for the slide diver with the large ring should get it deep.

[Sk8man]

Sherman I use both types and they both are effective at what they do best. I have had the deeper diver hitting bottom in 155 ft of water. The stealth of the longer leads with the slide divers is great in shallower applications or higher in the water column where you want to get away from the boat noise etc. but down deep they aren't the best option.

Edited December 22, 2021 by Sk8man

[HB2]

I have used 65# power pro for years . I switched to wire on one rod . I had nothing but trouble with it . I lost 3 divers ,3 flasher setups and all the terminal tackle that goes along with it . The wire is in the landfill now . Running side by side , wire to braid , I saw no difference , and some days the braid  did better . To start , use braid . Light-years difference from mono . Then add a wire setup after you get use to divers . 

[Vladislav]

Hey @Hounds

 

2021 was my 3rd trolling season, and this year I used the wire for the first time. I only have one complaint, it happened to me twice - one of the 19 strands snapped and created a little "bunch" on the line but we quickly cut it and reeled in the fish. In June, I had salmon spooling me approximately 800ft, I was starting to see the backing.

 

There are probably quite a few cons running a mono... So say you want to run mono on the diver and get 100ft down. So in order for you to get as deep as the wire, you would need a huge reel, at least size 30 Penn or equivalent 700 Shimano to have that much mono. I would think you would not want to run less than 40lb.

 

The mono is going to have lots of stretch and memory, I would also think the sinking curves for the mono are much different from the wire or brand as mono is more floating than these... And the curves will change as the mono stretches. Some bites that are too light won't trip the dipsy and probably God knows what else... Probably worth mentioning that big diameter mono must have a very good knot...

 

For me, the routine is braid dipsies on Lake Erie all along and Lake Ontario spring and fall. Summer on Lake Ontario goes wire once the fleas start showing up. BTW we were cleaning the fleas off the lines still late Oct this year... Good luck

[mr 580]

Sherman, for someone getting started using wire like Hounds IMO introducing other variables like using a slide diver just adds to the learning curve/frustrations.  On Lake Erie I fish slide divers exclusively and go to the “Ultimate Weight Kit” on my inside divers usually in late August.  I also use the Light Bite version for Lake Erie.  I run 45’ to 50’ behind the SD’s.  We don’t have flea issues out of Dunkirk so I use all braid all season.  Lake Ontario is a different deal-you need to fish deeper, faster and with heavier gear plus the fleas are a much bigger issue.  Lead length is less of an issue especially with flasher flies.  Most days a regular dipsey will do as well or better than a SD.  So for the majority of people using a dipsey and using wire is the best way to go.  Once someone gets their diver program dialed in then slide divers can be explored for specific applications-example outside diver higher in water column with a spoon.  SD’s have a learning curve of their own and I’ve seen a lot of people try them a trip or two then give up in frustration.   Can get expensive trying to learn too much too fast.  If you are losing gear take out variables don’t add them.

[Vladislav]

I don't mean to start an argument but I agree with Mr 580 said. I watched several videos about the slide diver and they actually turned me off. Not because it does not work, I am sure it does, but because you have to store them on the line with the rod after learning to properly rig/use them. They are not plug-n-play. For 18ft aluminum boat with limited to none storage space, I just don't see it. I usually take something like 10-16 rods with me every trip depending on the time of the season.

 

We had a pretty good season in 2021 for a newbie on just regular braid and wire dipsy, leadcore, weighted steel etc, and we did alright without any slide divers, ~5-6ft leader behind the dipsy and 8-10ft long meat rig behind a big flasher or 10ft leader and flasher/spin doctor + fly. I don't see any need so far in the slide diver - to me this is just another toy. Definitely a very magnificent toy but not necessary. 

[sherman brown]

5 hours ago, Vladislav said:

I don't mean to start an argument but I agree with Mr 580 said. I watched several videos about the slide diver and they actually turned me off. Not because it does not work, I am sure it does, but because you have to store them on the line with the rod after learning to properly rig/use them. They are not plug-n-play. For 18ft aluminum boat with limited to none storage space, I just don't see it. I usually take something like 10-16 rods with me every trip depending on the time of the season.

 

We had a pretty good season in 2021 for a newbie on just regular braid and wire dipsy, leadcore, weighted steel etc, and we did alright without any slide divers, ~5-6ft leader behind the dipsy and 8-10ft long meat rig behind a big flasher or 10ft leader and flasher/spin doctor + fly. I don't see any need so far in the slide diver - to me this is just another toy. Definitely a very magnificent toy but not necessary. 

but you don't have to use the slide part of the lite bite slide diver. just use a swivel and hook it to the front arm then tie a 7' leader to an O-ring and lace it through the back of the diver and get the 7oz weight kit and use it instead of the 2 oz weight to get deep.

[HB2]

You guys are missing the boat if you look past slide divers . They are a great presentations on a  tough bite day . Have saved the day many times for me . Brought one on friends boat and ran it opposite a wire rod . And it outperfomed it on 2 outings. 

 

Get the bigger one without the depth ring . 

 

My set up is 65# braid , Albright to 40 to 50 ft of 30# mono which the diver slides on , bead , swivel 6 ft of 15# mono or flouro, BB swivel and spoon . Or I use flasher sometimes . 

 

They work . I would suggest if you have 2 divers  , one is a slide diver .  They shine in 30 to 70 ft depths . 

[Sk8man]

It sure doesn't have to be an all or nothing situation for either type diver and they both work well when set up right. This stuff is kinda like a mechanic 's toolbox. You select the right tool for the job. The job here refers to lake conditions, type of stuff you are running, and species targeted along with the time of season - in addition to a lot other factors. It isn't a matter of one method fits all or one is wrong and the other is right. For example, uring the Spring or late Fall you may be running shallow in clearer water , or you may be targeting steelies in the upper portion of the water column out in the middle of the lake and stealth may be very desirable so using slide divers may be just the ticket to get out and away from the boat without the limitations of a standard magnum or Deeper Diver. On the other hand during the Summer when the thermocline falls deep or kings are located in the 42 degree ice water at 125 ft. the Deeper Diver will get down there with the least amount of line out with wire and you may not need a real long lead 9and maybe not fluoro as well).  Again, selecting the tool  designed for the particular job or circumstances can make life easier. Some folks may feel more comfortable or familiar with their own particular setup and that is fine as long as it works consistently.

[Vladislav]

I don't doubt they work. I am just supporting the point made earlier, i.e. for newbies this is something that may not have to necessarily be a must have toy. Even on the tough days, we managed to get by with an all-inline planers spread, and 3-color SWR. You just push them further away. Same for spring when the fish is shallow.

 

Without a doubt, slide diver is a cool thing; I am however not convinced it is a must-have, even after watching several charter captains and experienced fishermen talking about them. More like a different gear option. I am planning to get it later at some point, when I will be rich enough to upgrade to a bigger boat where I could store all my fishing stuff  

[Sk8man]

Again, different tools from the toolbox. The original concern was use of wire with divers. wire and divers is just one set of tools in the box. The depth ssituation has many solutions from the toolbox

[HoundsNTrout]

When the browns were in say 30fow we had good luck with the mini divers and tripZ divers. They did pretty well off boards believe it or not.  IDK about slide divers yet.  lol   Gotta get the whole wire thing down first after we head out deeper.   

Thanks all 

[HoundsNTrout]

20 hours ago, mr 580 said:

Sherman, for someone getting started using wire like Hounds IMO introducing other variables like using a slide diver just adds to the learning curve/frustrations.  On Lake Erie I fish slide divers exclusively and go to the “Ultimate Weight Kit” on my inside divers usually in late August.  I also use the Light Bite version for Lake Erie.  I run 45’ to 50’ behind the SD’s.  We don’t have flea issues out of Dunkirk so I use all braid all season.  Lake Ontario is a different deal-you need to fish deeper, faster and with heavier gear plus the fleas are a much bigger issue.  Lead length is less of an issue especially with flasher flies.  Most days a regular dipsey will do as well or better than a SD.  So for the majority of people using a dipsey and using wire is the best way to go.  Once someone gets their diver program dialed in then slide divers can be explored for specific applications-example outside diver higher in water column with a spoon.  SD’s have a learning curve of their own and I’ve seen a lot of people try them a trip or two then give up in frustration.   Can get expensive trying to learn too much too fast.  If you are losing gear take out variables don’t add them.

I will STILL try the slide divers just because I like a challenge and always like finding new things and new methods.  However, it probably won't be while we are fishing.   Just take the boat out to 30fow or whatever and experiment.  
I appreciate all the different things here all related, everything is related somehow.  like in Nature.  Thanks all.  

 

[sherman brown]

the slide diver with the 7 oz conversion kit with the large ring is just another tool to get deep with braid. good luck with your tests.

[mr 580]

I’m agree with SK8 that there are a lot of tools in the toolbox and you use them in different circumstances.  I’m a big user of slide divers but I also know there is a learning curve with them and the same goes for wire.  For people starting out learn one tool at a time-doing otherwise can result in lost gear(took me a while to learn this).  To me slide divers offer the advantage of being able to adjust your leader length to whatever you want to slide the diver to.  Really helps with spoons-flasher flies not so much. For Lake Ontario where you don’t have the small fish that won’t release, you don’t need the Light Bite version so if you setup a fixed leader on a Slide Diver it is the same as LJ dipsey.  Use the tools for what they were designed for- slide diver works well higher in the water column with a longer lead as it’s dive curve is less than a dipsey.  There are many ways to do things and learn what works for you- jumping from one tool to the next can get frustrating.  Keep things simple change one thing at a time.

[HoundsNTrout]

Thanks for all this stuff guys.  And rather than post this next question in another thread I'll ask here while I seem to have a lot of guys here.   LOL   

Charts are based on Mono, how far 'off" is wire or just follow the chart and call it good?  Or let a little bit less out?   I was wondering exactly where my divers where when I had over 200 ft. out and I was using charts based on mono is what they all say.   Rule of thumb?  for wire   Thanks. 

And this doesn't belong here but swivels.    Should I put a swivel/snap on the end right on the bait end?  
Or I had SPRO swivels size 8 where mono was, then at the bait end was just a snap.  
Does this make any difference in presentation?  ( especially early browns ) ??  with spoons.   Or can I just tie my mono to the leader then at the very end a swivel with the snap?   Any thing adventageous to either method? or not so advantageous?   

Edited December 24, 2021 by Hounds

[Sk8man]

Your first question isn't as straight forward as it might seem. First of all it is difficult to tell exactly where a diver is located because there are many factors involved that you may or may not be able to figure on or figure out. The size of the diver makes a significant difference, your boat speed is a factor, the current strength under the water is another. By using a Fishhawk TD attached to your line you can get a fairly good estimate (perhaps within 5 ft or so). With wire (assuming 30 lb stranded) the achieved depth  depends on the type/size of diver and the particular setting (1-3 on most). As a rule of thumb with the (now Dreamweaver) Deeper Diver (or perhaps magnums as well) I figure that on the zero to 1 setting I allow about 1.5 ft per ft wire to 1 ft. depth of diver at 2.0 mph or so (also depends on what you are using to measure boat speed), for a #2 setting 2 ft wire per ft of depth, and for a number 3 setting 3-4 ft of wire out per foot of depth.I also monitor the angle of my lines to try to compensate for current/variations in boat speed etc.

These figures are based on my own experience in my own boat and which have been intermittently tested out by use of the TD and they may vary from other setups/boats so it should be considered a rough estimate.

 

Regarding the swivels: At the end of the wire I use a large 100 lb or more test ball bearing swivel with a large duolock snap to attach everything to. Most of the time I run trolling flies behind divers or else meat rigs while running spoons from other setups. From the dipsy to the flasher or Spin Doctor I run a 4-6 ft. 40 lb test mono leader tied directly to the attractor swivel and then attach the loop of the (homemade) fly (18-21 inches long 50 lb test mono) to the rear of the attractor.

 

If I use divers in shallow in the Spring for browns they are the small divers ( or for longer leads I use slide divers) with an 8 ft 15-20 lb test fluoro leader with a small Spro swivel three to four feet up the leader and a small Duolock snap at the lure end for spoons or for some tie directly with loop knot to a stickbait for example.

 

Edited December 24, 2021 by Sk8man

[Vladislav]

Hey Hounds,

 

Here are my 2 cents from a newbie to a newbie... Although I am thinking of denouncing my newbie-ness 

 

I asked the same question about the curve in our fishing group on north shore and experienced fisher-dudes and charter captains said go 3:1 rule on dipsy size 1 and 2:1 rule on magnum size.

 

When we were out with dipsies, I actually bothered to "guestimate" the angle of the wire at which is intersects the water, at which point this becomes a trigonometric problem finding a sine of the angle. So, according to my 3 buddies on the boat at that day, i.e. 3 more pairs of eyes, given the direction we were trolling, at the speed we were trolling, 12-inch flasher and a meat rig, I figured out we are looking at approximately 15 degrees angle. Its sine is 0.2588. Therefore, we were looking at roughly 4:1 for size 1 dipsy, but once we turned back, the angle was more like almost 20 degrees, at which point the sine of 20 degrees is 0.34; therefore, you need to "guestimate" that angle and do something in between 3:1 or 4:1.

 

Now, you have to bear in mind that while many of these "guestimates" may be great, the depth you targer, the underwater currents, the type of baits, the trolling speed etc, will offset them depth by a few feet here and there. So for the upcoming 2022 year I got FishHawk TD (so far I had only X4) as I would be interested to see how deep the dipsy goes and the associated temperature.

 

Furthermore, the wire goes nearly linearly through the water because of its low resistance and the more you get out, the diving curve will be linear-like. This is not the case with braid, let alone mono, which I am guessing you won't be using for the dipsy  . There is a reason dipsies are sized to different depths, i.e. the more braid you get out, the dipsy will continue to dive but starting from certain point, they won't dive linearly but rather more horizontally.

 

The bottom line is that you target a depth based on 1) A temperature and/or 2) The fish marked at some point on your fish finder. Let's say you want to get to 50ft down in 100fow. So you would roll out size 1 dipsies, one 150ft out and one 170ft out and give it let's say 20-30 min. If no bites, you can make adjustments as necessary, i.e. let more line out or change bait or trolling speed etc...

 

The other topic about rigging is like this - if you are after browns with spoons, you would want to have the longest leader possible behind the dipsy (let's say 10-15ft of 20lb fluoro or mono) with one end connecting to the dipsy with ball-bearing of some kind, and another to the spoon with a quality snap of something like 30-40lb. Some would btw say that this is where the slide diver with longer lead would be beneficial (and they are right) but I did ok with 2-color line of 100ft weighted steel outside on inline planers.

Late summer is a completely different game here on north shore where we go to 100ft and at one point 120ft down after a massive warm water dump by the rain... I ran wire for the first time this year and I had 2x dipsies size 1 at 400ft out and 2x dipsies size magnum 180-240 out. For these ones, I had snubbers (I ran the one used for downrigger weights by Amish Outfitters) from the dipsy followed by 6ft of 50lb fluorocarbon (which next year I might replace with 50lb mono as some say mono plays a part-time role as snubber with its stretch), and about 8-10ft meat rig.

 

Now, I rig my sinking lines exactly as you had described - an spro power swivel on the business end and tie to it a leader 5-40ft of fluoro with a good quality snap. No need for swivel, an spro is good enough. I would not recommend doing this for stuff behind the dipsy however.

 

Lastly, I would NOT recommend you tie anything directly because when dipsy trips, the line gets "stressed" and the knots are the weakest point in line and you will lose $$$ in tackle plus valuable time. Make a bunch of dedicated leaders and use them in a targeted fashion.

 

I recommend you get several DEDICATED pool noodles for each of the following:

- About 10 leaders for browns and Lake Erie walleyes: 10-15ft of 20-25 fluoro for spoons only

- About 10 leaders for salmon, 6ft of 30-40lb fluoro or mono, I also use these between the dipsy and the flasher + meat rig, and also, I am using them for running spoons behind flasher or dodger on the rigger line

- About 10 leaders of 10-15 ft of 40-50lb fluoro for running spoons for salmon behind a dipsy

 

Each leader for the dipsy has nothing but a good quality snap since either the dipsy or the attractor come with ball bearing stuff on it. These pool noodles will last you for a season and you can always make a few more to replenish the ones that are deteriorating.

 

That's pretty much it. Some of it was a little off-topic but I hope this was helpful. Now hurry up because you have about 2.5 months left to make these! 

 

Edited December 24, 2021 by Vladislav

[HoundsNTrout]

Thanks guys.  I think I have a good grasp on the dipsy set up and such,  it was the early browns I was referring to sorry.  About the swivel set up.  I see Bill Saiff using just a snap on the spoons with his swivel up at the mono/flouro where that meets.  I was doing that but just figured try a snap WITH the swivel already attached on the business end and then my mono to flouro will be tied.  Do people think the browns or anything else would SEE the swivel with snap ( with the extra noise too maybe?  IDK )   We are not using divers at that time except out in 25 fow I had luck with TripZ divers and a couple mini divers.  Set at 20 ft or whatever at the time.  We also used weighted lines with 1oz or whatever, depends where we were.   But does it really matter if I use just a small snap ( no swivel)  at the spoon and put my swivel up 10 ft or whatever  VS  ( simpler to me ) tie the mono/flouro and put small lightweight 30# swivel/snap at the business end?   For early browns this is. Not out in 'open water' out further.  I have all my dipsies and flashers set up like the photo above. 

Sk8man   thanks for the info on 'wheres my diver' .  lol    Appreciate all that.  

 

[Sk8man]

You may be "overthinking" it regarding the brown setups.  For many years before the advent of fluoro and waterfleas we fished year round with 12 lb test mono and may have used an 8 lb mono leader in shallow with real clear water with a small black swivel snap when viewed to be desirable at the terminal end. This was true  for both toplines and downriggers. In more recent years with the clear water from Zebras and the introduction of fluorocarbon lines folks have switched over to fluorocarbon leaders of varying test strengths from 8-20 for browns in the Spring. Browns are thought to be line shy and wary of boat noise so lines have always been run larger distances from the boat whether horizontally or in back of the boat (sometimes 200 ft or so) In the Spring before the fleas gather you can get away with lighter main lines and leaders but occasionally you can encounter a high teens or low twenties king so although that may be desirable for browns  a good king may test the limits of the line and your drag

 

In terms of the terminal end and particular details all the methods can work whether a swivel at the end, loop knot, or Duolock at end with small Spro #8 somewhere up the leader or at the attachment to the main line. Part of the decision depends on the particular spoon or stick you are running and the speeds you will be running it at. For most spoons a small black SOLID RING ball bearing swivel snap will work fine (although sometimes the spoon needs to be "tuned"). For sticks some seem to work better with just the loop knot (e.g. older Rapalas) while many work fine with either the small swivel snap or a Duolock. In the case of the Duolock the Spro 8 is desirable to keep line twist to a minimum. In short, first familiarize yourself with the stuff you'll be running by experimenting with them, and tune them as necessary. I use all of the above depending on circumstances....there is no right and wrong unless the one selected doesn't work effectively and there is no "one size fits all"

[HB2]

My suggestion is this ..  

 

Buy a 150 us spool of 65 or 80# power pro , 20 $ 

 

Get a bigger size slide diver, 20 $

 

This setup is good to 80 ft . 

 

Shallower waters , set it to 6 and let it out so is 5 ft bellow surface or 10 ft above bottom . 

 

I have the 7 oz ring and don't like it. When you have to get down real deep , a mag dipsey it better and you most times don't need the long setback . 

 

A slide diver is a very versatile tool . And pretty cheap , relatively . And way more forgiving and durible than wire . I have braid that is 15 years old and 2 setups . Zero , repeat , ZERO problems . The wire in 2 years cost me 200$ . 

 

 

 

AS far as swivel goes , what Les said 

Edited December 26, 2021 by HB2

[TyeeTanic]

On 12/22/2021 at 11:13 AM, sherman brown said:

i'll still never understand if you want to get deep why you guys don't try the 7 oz slide diver with braid. i can get to 65' with 65# braid and a standard ring and weight, and thats as deep as i want to fish or i would try the heavier weight. in don't use the slide feature of the diver. i just add my leader to the back of the diver.

 

In the middle of summer, wires often target 80' to 100' deep, on Lake Ontario.

I don't think slide divers are gonna cut it.

Wire divers and riggers is basically you're only options.

Edited December 26, 2021 by TyeeTanic

[TyeeTanic]

On 12/22/2021 at 2:48 PM, sherman brown said:

yeah, but the weight's what gets the diver down so why wouldn't the 7 oz weight kit you can get for the slide diver with the large ring should get it deep.

 

A 12 lb weight on a rigger has about 40 ft to 50 ft of blowback, when you try and hit 100ft to 120 ft deep.

(So you need 150 ft of line out to get 100 ft down).

 

How much blowback you think a 7 oz (little more than half pound weight) weight will have? Answer ... tonnes, you'll have a tough time reaching 100 ft without the right diver on it to assist.

Edited December 26, 2021 by TyeeTanic

[Vladislav]

56 minutes ago, HB2 said:

A slide diver is a very versatile tool . And pretty cheap , relatively . And way more forgiving and durible than wire . I have braid that is 15 years old and 2 setups . Zero , repeat , ZERO problems . The wire in 2 years cost me 200$ . 

 

Now you got our attention for the topic of the slide divers  ... Still I will give it another season or two before trying it but that is a pretty good argument for those of us who are the weekend fishermen in a normal non-covid year  . How do you go about fleas? 100lb braid?

[HB2]

2 hours ago, TyeeTanic said:

 

A 12 lb weight on a rigger has about 40 ft to 50 ft of blowback, when you try and hit 100ft to 120 ft deep.

(So you need 150 ft of line out to get 100 ft down).

 

How much blowback you think a 7 oz (little more than half pound weight) weight will have? Answer ... tonnes, you'll have a tough time reaching 100 ft without the right diver on it to assist.

I am talking about the 7 oz optional replacement weight ring that that goes on the slide diver . When fish are below 80 ft there are better options IMO .  A reg or mag  dipsey or  other brand same diver is better option IMO . 

 

But the slide divers with the 7 oz ring, which pulls hard , will get down to 120 ft .I know this because I smacked bottom .it surprised me .   And that's with 65# braid . Which is fine with the fleas if they are not real bad . I have been using braid  divers for over 20 years . 

 

If you want to get into divers , a braid rod setup is a great start . A slide diver is 20$ . When fish get deep cut the mono off and wrap the whole  setup on a pool noodle or similar and run a reg or mag dipsey . 60$ gets you a very versatile setup other than rod and reel .