DEC Atlantic salmon stocking proposal MUST READ

[fjrider]

https://www.dec.ny.gov/docs/fish_marine_pdf/draftloatlplan.pdf

 

This may or may not be good for open lake fishing.  Unless the stocking cap is raised, fewer Chinook will be stocked in the future.  
public comment is requested, (Aug 14 deadline).  Make your opinion heard! 
[email protected]

(DEC LO Unit Leader), Chris Legard at (315) 654-2147

[GAMBLER]

The big issue is Thiamine deficiency and mortality of Atlantic’s.  Canada has proved the Atlantic program is a complete flop.  Hundreds of thousands stocked yearly and returns of less than 25 or less adults Year after year.  Why do we keep trying this program with poor results?  Until alewife are gone, Atlantic’s will not do well in Lake Ontario.  The trib anglers and DEC have to give up this pipe dream and face the fact that it isn’t going to work.  They stock less coho in the lake (lake wide) than coho and we actually see big returns of coho.  If coho returns were as low as Atlantic returns, the program would be cut.  This program is a complete waste of resources and hatchery space. 

[Tall Tails]

This is a lot of money to satisfy a few.... Please write and make public comments heard.  Anyone want to venture what the economic impact is?  I guarantee more dollars would be spent chasing an additional 84k in Chinooks then 200k Atlantics.... 

[GAMBLER]

30 minutes ago, Tall Tails said:

This is a lot of money to satisfy a few.... Please write and make public comments heard.  Anyone want to venture what the economic impact is?  I guarantee more dollars would be spent chasing an additional 84k in Chinooks then 200k Atlantics.... 

I sent a lengthy email.  Unreal that we continue to reinvent the wheel and it’s still the same after decades of trying….

[HB2]

I'm not saying yea or nay on the program but I think the amount of tributary anglers state wide and their economic impact is grossly underestimated by some . 

[Tall Tails]

36 minutes ago, GAMBLER said:

I sent a lengthy email.  Unreal that we continue to reinvent the wheel and it’s still the same after decades of trying….

This is to continually satisfy a few from Trout Unlimited.. There distain for Chinooks never ceases to amaze me. 

[Gill-T]

I looked at the proposal and it doesn’t look like numbers of Atlantic stocked are any different than what they have been stocking.  

[Tall Tails]

4 minutes ago, Gill-T said:

I looked at the proposal and it doesn’t look like numbers of Atlantic stocked are any different than what they have been stocking.  

But are they reducing the chinook stockings because of it?  Instead of 50k this last year would they have given us 134k instead?  

[HB2]

The DEC cut the domestic rainbow program ( which was very successful for south shore tribe guys )  for more rearing space for brown trout . Seems to me that was done for the east end lake anglers who don't get the kings till later in the year . 

[Tall Tails]

3 minutes ago, HB2 said:

The DEC cut the domestic rainbow program ( which was very successful for south shore tribe guys )  for more rearing space for brown trout . Seems to me that was done for the east end lake anglers who don't get the kings till later in the year . 

We asked for years for more domestic rainbows and less steelhead.  Were always told no even though domestics live more like a Brown trout and are more accessible to all anglers.  

[Gill-T]

As long as Lake Ontario is heavy with alewives, thiaminase will limit Atlantic reproduction to near zero. Reduce king stocking increases alewives. You want more Atlantics?  Stock more kings. 

[LongLine]

I believe they said that one Atlantic will replace 2.4 Chinooks.  So 200k Atlantics will probably replace 480K Chinooks.  (yikes!)

[GAMBLER]

4 hours ago, HB2 said:

I'm not saying yea or nay on the program but I think the amount of tributary anglers state wide and their economic impact is grossly underestimated by some . 

It’s not about angler participation.  It’s about survival.  Survival of Atlantic’s is horrible with alewife as a main food source.  Until there is a better food source for Atlantic’s, it’s a waste of time, money, hatchery space and resources to continue to try to expand this program.   I’m all for them as part of the fishery but it doesn’t make sense to waste resources that are already thin in the hatcheries.  They are a great sport fish but, survival is horrible and they don’t hold a candle to kings.  Look into how many Atlantic’s are stocked on the north shore and then look at the numbers of returns as adults to the tribs they were stocked in.  Hundreds of thousands stocked and less than 25 returns most years.  

[fcboats]

1 hour ago, LongLine said:

I believe they said that one Atlantic will replace 2.4 Chinooks.  So 200k Atlantics will probably replace 480K Chinooks.  (yikes!)

Other way around.

[King Davy]

I read and responded to the draft plan. I’m highly disappointed in the plan as it stands and here are my reasons.

 

DEC and anglers both Lake and trib shouldn’t consider the program at its current state as a means to get more fish in the creel.

 

This is a historic heritage species that should be treated the same as DEC is treating restoration of wild Brook trout in NYS. I’m involved with a program with DEC called Priority Waters. We are looking at 100’s of rivers and streams where restoration of habitat would impact growth and sustainable native Brook trout populations.

 

There are a handful or LO tribs that “might” meet that target. Salmon river has proven it could and wild LL Salmon have been captured there. South Sandy and Irondequoit have also been highly successful with stockings in the 80’s and mid 90’s. Why those programs didn’t continue is beyond me.

 

The focus of a LL program if truly putting a plan together would first be done on if we have the right strain of salmon that survives and returns well to Chosen LO rivers. The Sabago strain seems to be successful and other strains have been tried but are there any other likely strains they haven’t tried that should be?  Next is there habitat in chosen streams that could induce a summer fishery. South Sandy did in the 90’s and the Irondequoit had decent success in the mid 80’s. The salmon river has had several years of solid summer runs. So it has been successful in the past.

 

I think it’s a mistake to aim this program as a “ Grow, Put, and Take “ fishery. It should be a locked down science study on if there could be a viable sport fishery at some point. Only after you could answer if these fish will find suitable habitat in some of our south shore tribs. And honestly if it were successful it truly would be a bigger advantage to trib fisheries than open water. Traditionally LL’s are a river fish.

 

In the 2019 to 2020 trib creel survey over 2,700 LL were caught in oak orchard creek alone. But this next year the run was poor. But of course there are factors that contributed. # 1 being the nearly 100% die off of the ADK hatchery fish in 2019 due to a power failure.

 

Also the misconception that NYS spends large sums of money on this program is false. One hatchery(ADK)  that provided fish not only to LO but also all the finger lakes. There are many on this board who fish the finger lakes and enjoy and are successful catching LL’s both trolling and in the fall in its tribs.

 

The Feds are funding the large majority of the cost to raise and provide fish for LO. 
 

The fact that there has been some highly successful years of at least trib fishing suggests that this program could be successful. But I think the DEC and the Feds need to focus on the science specifically on what it takes in fish strains and available habitat to say you could put a consistent sport fishery in place. And this honestly is way more of an advantage to streams and rivers than the lake but if confirmed it could be for the over all sport fishery.

 

There is never going to be a salmonid in the open waters that could or should be a replacement to the King Salmon. It’s a species that was built for the most exciting fishing and fish fighting in the open waters. But switch the environments and a dime bright LL salmon is a world class river fish on rod and reel, where the Chinook is not the same fish once into their spawning cycle.

 

To treat this as a science study on four chosen rivers would include for me, no harvest of this fish for a couple spawning cycles. A moratorium if you will and creel data with as many fish sampled in the system as possible. 
 

And personally if after a locked down study for a strategic time frame resulted in, this species is highly unlikely to create an impactful sport fishery so be it.

 

But this has been much more of a shotgun approach for many years. The last two years Salmon river plantings have been done at the river mouth just like Oak orchard that has seen the highest returns. So that has to play out. Will that make a difference? Also the Canadians stocked fingerling’s not yearlings until just two years ago. Fall reports from the Ganny this past fall were much more encouraging.

 

And finally there is the state of Michigan that has a highly successful LL program. Not just the Huron St Marys program that is truly world class, but the Lake Michigan rivers are seeing highly successful reruns of LL’s.

 

Get the plan put out as a coordinated series of stages to study Strain, habitat, restoration of the most likely viable rivers and streams everybody both trib and lake anglers onboard to catch and release and report each catch to DEC and the Feds to build a true data base that could prove viability, problem areas and possible “if” possible mitigation of those issues. If the result arrow points up, invest in the future. If not? Find the next project and fish to work on.

Edited July 8, 2022 by King Davy

[bulletbob]

 Er umm.. If Alewives are such a bad food  source for Atlantics, why do they  do so well in Cayuga???. Thats  about all they eat there..They get big and look healthy.

. Or are we talking strictly the  effect on reproduction of Atlantics which I understand...bob

[Gill-T]

It affects reproduction. 

[LongLine]

The project says it wants to establish a summer fishery for the tribs.  It's my understanding that the Atlantic's spend a lot more time in & around the rivers, when young, than other salmon.  (Please correct me if that's wrong) Is it because they like the temperatures or they're home-bodies?  I gather from the project that they need a cold water habitat. The project says the amount of cold-water habitat is unknown. I think I would like a good history of temperature regimes before I undertook a project like this. I'm not sure of trib temps, but that lake has been warming up a lot faster in the last few years than it has in the past. 

 

Nearshore right now is close to 70F. (Beginning of July...which is summer.)  Additionally, this time of year I used to see bait pods in 80-100 FOW. The other day I finally found them out in 200 FOW. (Either way, that's a long way to cast from a trib)  Given that the Atlantic's have been dying from eating alewives, they certainly aren't nearshore, this time of year.  Perhaps they ate alewives in April, but that's certainly not summer. (Do alewives spawn in the tribs?....I don't know.)

 

I understand that some anglers have caught them in the SR.  But I'm guessing they were thermally blocked into that habitat, as the project suggests and it says it may happen in Irondequoit Creek. The great majority of those anglers are out of staters who come to catch a salmon.  Did the creel surveyors ask them if they prefer an Atlantic or a King?  If the Atlantic's are very successful in some of the inland lakes (Fingers) why not direct those anglers to those places and promote them, where the limit is not one per day? Isn't a lot of the SR off limits to fishing now days?  

 

Another question I have is if the young Atlantic's are going to hang around the tribs, what will the bird situation do to them?  They're probably easier to swallow than Bass.  

 

Is this project suggesting the Big-O Chinook fishing is going to go the way it has on the west coast?

[HB2]

The entire NYS northern shoreline has ecosystems that support pretty much any freshwater fish that swims. How lucky are we to have that ? 

 

You can fish bass ,pike , musky walleye , panfish , trout or salmon . 

 

More importantly you can fish fish for those species in a way you like to . 

 

For trout / salmon , some guys like to troll . Others passion is the trib pin or fly fishing thing . I like to do it all ( but I can't bring myself to pick up a center pin ) .  And I can tell you from my perspective , if I'm targeting fall browns and rainbows , stream kings can be a nuisance.  

 

Sounds to me like there is a fear by some that kings will be put on the back burner . I don't see that happening . The king fishing is lights out this year . 

 

I personally would love to see a good Atlantic program . It's always fun  to catch one and why shouldn't the trib guys have what they want also ? They buy license and pay their tax dollars for the stocking program also. 

 

As far as hatchery space . I said it before and now again . It's time for a new state of the art hatchery in this state . It should be priority 1 of the members of this board . 

[King Davy]

Let’s get one thing out of the way. No species of fish is being considered to replace chinook salmon. Especially Atlantic Salmon. Lake Ontario and it’s tribs especially the Salmon River and the Genny was the greatest in land Atlantic Salmon fishery on the planet. There is tons of historical writings about this fishery pre industrial revolution. 
 

Atlantics are a distant kin to brown trout and sea run browns. Their temperature tolerance is into the low to mid 70’s for survival however they are a fish that is active in the high 50’s to mid 60’s. They are a variety eater from any kind of bait fish to insects.

 

they are much like our steelhead when it comes to seeking a river. While they spawn in the fall late October throughout November they will enter a river many months before paring up to spawn. Thereby creating a chance for anglers to fish for them.

 

I caught one of my biggest LL on the salmon river a couple years ago a brute of a fish over 15 pounds on May 2 as it entered the river.

 

I had a day landing four dime bright just crazy jumping fish on July 3 a few years ago.

 

I caught a stray LL in the Genny around thanksgiving that jumped 17 times and tore line out like any big salmon or steelhead. 
 

So they show up as early as May and can stay in a river happily for six months or more. Two years ago I caught three drop backs LL’s on the Oak on February 7. The water temp that day was 34 degrees and they were in the air longer than in the water.

In the last 8 to 10 years LL have only been stocked to the best of my knowledge at Oak Orchard and the salmon river. Two years ago LL’s were being caught in the oak In August the total stocking was about 60k fish from DEC with additional fish from Tunison at Cornell. I don’t think the total number ever exceeded 120k. 
 

we all know to create a steady sport fishery we need a lot more fish than that. However I’m in total agreement with Longline. Do the science on trib environments first to find ( if any) could be home to LL in the spring through fall.

 

Well South Sandy up north was once a trial river that saw up to 20 pound LL’s return in the month of June back in the 90’s. Then that program disappeared for what ever reason. Same with irondequoit in the 80’s.

Natural Reproduction in my mind is a stretch at this point much like it is for steelhead and brown trout in our rivers which would never sustain a sport fishey. But some wild LL’s have been captured in the Salmon river. Two summers ago USF&W did some river floats down the salmon seeking thermal barriers. When found and they are there, there could be plans on stream rehabilitation to encourage LL’s to settle in and around those safe havens when water temps got warmer.

Such a thermal relief area does exist in the lower fly zone. DEC has gone in there in the dead of summer and found healthy numbers of adult salmon milling around .

 

A sport fishing program for LL’s is doable since there have been previous successes. But they must find the right habitat, and will need more fish to see if they return consistently.

[charb]

It's all about $$$. They been doing this **** in Lake Champlain for 40 plus years and it is not working there either. Fed. $$$'s...is our $$

[GAMBLER]

3 hours ago, King Davy said:

Let’s get one thing out of the way. No species of fish is being considered to replace chinook salmon. Especially Atlantic Salmon. Lake Ontario and it’s tribs especially the Salmon River and the Genny was the greatest in land Atlantic Salmon fishery on the planet. There is tons of historical writings about this fishery pre industrial revolution. 
 

Atlantics are a distant kin to brown trout and sea run browns. Their temperature tolerance is into the low to mid 70’s for survival however they are a fish that is active in the high 50’s to mid 60’s. They are a variety eater from any kind of bait fish to insects.

 

they are much like our steelhead when it comes to seeking a river. While they spawn in the fall late October throughout November they will enter a river many months before paring up to spawn. Thereby creating a chance for anglers to fish for them.

 

I caught one of my biggest LL on the salmon river a couple years ago a brute of a fish over 15 pounds on May 2 as it entered the river.

 

I had a day landing four dime bright just crazy jumping fish on July 3 a few years ago.

 

I caught a stray LL in the Genny around thanksgiving that jumped 17 times and tore line out like any big salmon or steelhead. 
 

So they show up as early as May and can stay in a river happily for six months or more. Two years ago I caught three drop backs LL’s on the Oak on February 7. The water temp that day was 34 degrees and they were in the air longer than in the water.

In the last 8 to 10 years LL have only been stocked to the best of my knowledge at Oak Orchard and the salmon river. Two years ago LL’s were being caught in the oak In August the total stocking was about 60k fish from DEC with additional fish from Tunison at Cornell. I don’t think the total number ever exceeded 120k. 
 

we all know to create a steady sport fishery we need a lot more fish than that. However I’m in total agreement with Longline. Do the science on trib environments first to find ( if any) could be home to LL in the spring through fall.

 

Well South Sandy up north was once a trial river that saw up to 20 pound LL’s return in the month of June back in the 90’s. Then that program disappeared for what ever reason. Same with irondequoit in the 80’s.

Natural Reproduction in my mind is a stretch at this point much like it is for steelhead and brown trout in our rivers which would never sustain a sport fishey. But some wild LL’s have been captured in the Salmon river. Two summers ago USF&W did some river floats down the salmon seeking thermal barriers. When found and they are there, there could be plans on stream rehabilitation to encourage LL’s to settle in and around those safe havens when water temps got warmer.

Such a thermal relief area does exist in the lower fly zone. DEC has gone in there in the dead of summer and found healthy numbers of adult salmon milling around .

 

A sport fishing program for LL’s is doable since there have been previous successes. But they must find the right habitat, and will need more fish to see if they return consistently.

The Canadians have pumped hundreds of thousands of Atlantic’s into the system with piss poor returns.  If the return rate was good, let’s move forward.  Until that issue is resolved, we are blowing money and resources that are already slim in this fishery.  It’s a pipe dream that isn’t reality until they can figure out the thiamine issue with Atlantic’s.  

[King Davy]

Gambler they until two years ago put fingerlings in at two to three inches. In other words bait. They anticipated those tiny fish would stay in their highly thermal relief streams for a year smolt imprint and swim out to the lake. 
 

Fingerling stocking has failed miserably everywhere. See the former LO Coho program. DEC plants yearling at about 60k fish and they grow and return to rivers as adults.

 

I believe for the first time Canada started planting year old LL’s in 2020 or 2019, after DEC in their joint meetings encouraged them to do so for years.

 

I have many Canadian MNR biologist buddies I fish with who confirmed a much different picture last fall on returns. Certainly not a landslide change but encouraging enough to stay down the path of stocking  yearlings.

 

But if on a course to just play grow put and take on heritage species without taking the time to protect them get a coordinated effort to do so from anglers, do the real science of habitat investment I could agree it’s destined to continue to fail. It’s either push your chips to the center of the table, or fold your hand. Can’t go have way… all in or all out. And I think the current LL plan is miles short of being all in.

[LongLine]

It's great to reminisce about "Natural history" and talk about extirpation but people need to recognize that Lake Ontario has changed dramatically.  It doesn't get nearly the ice coverage it used to.  The waters are warming faster. Thermoclines go deeper.  The water is clearer (and baren) to much greater depths. Diporeia is nearly gone. Phosphorus levels are down. (perhaps way too low.) Mussels, fleas & gobies (& lord knows how many other invassives) abound. Algea grows like crazy in the embayments. Most of the Chlorophyll is below the thermocline.  Natural Repro of the salmon (which took the DEC many years to admit was even happening) is "up-down-all-around".  Perch & Bass populations are down. (What happened to all the Northerns we used to catch?) IS VHS under control? There's still an awful lot of commorants. Plan 2014 backfired & wiped out wetlands.  I don't see the lake ever going back to what it was.  There are too many stressors.  

 

Pg 4 states "stocking capacity requires (1) decrease stocking of another specie or (2) increasing the stocking cap."  Given the dynamic alewive population (few yrs ago, we lost 2 year clasess of them; and this yr's boom in little ones) the 2nd alternative isn't going to get done.  It also rules out any chance for another hatchery. (Seems to me it was quite a battle just to get new pumps at the SR hatchery as well as get covers for the fish runs at another hatchery.) 

 

As for Canadian success:  When they greatly increased Atlantic stocking, they also greatly reduced Chinook stocking. (i.e. near zero)  

 

L.O. Annual reports say that the Trib creel surveys are conducted from Sept through May. Numbers show highest numbers of anglers in Sept & Oct when Chinooks are running, & with highest catches.  Very very few salmon catches after beginning of Nov. Steelheads & Browns get high numbers after Oct.  AR's also report Atlantic "desire" is anecdotal. So I guess my question is whether those winter Trib anglers would rather catch Steelheads or Atlantics? I'd like to see that question (desire) quantified.  I'd also like to see quantification of summer angler CPUE of any specie on the SR and other mentioned tribs.  Anecdoctal is not good enough for me as we all know the minority can make a lot of "noise." 

[HB2]

This state spends money it doesn't have all the time on projects . Maintanence , that's another issue . So I could see a new job creating hatchery project . Why not ? A great opportunity for ribbon cutting photo oops . 

 

The ecosystem has changed . There are less bass but man are they bigger. A lot of big perch also if you know how to catch them . I also get a lot of Northerners . 

 

My arms were tired yesterday from all the fish I reeled in yesterday. Is the fishing not good enough out there ? 

 

So why not develop this Atlantic project . Could be a great thing for stream anglers . They should have some say in this whole thing also . I spend a fair amount of time on the tribs with my fly rod  . It's extremely challenging . I like that.  

My guess if the Altlantics take hold , guys will come from near and far to chase them . 

 

And that " noise " comment is just insulting .