MUST READ, DEC’s new Atlantic salmon stocking proposal.

[fjrider]

https://www.dec.ny.gov/docs/fish_marine_pdf/draftloatlplan.pdf

 

This may or may not be good news for the open lake fishery.  Note that IF the total LO stocking cap is not raised, fewer Kings will be stocked annually, (Pg 6).  The DEC wants our feedback and the reply window is open until 08/14.  
[email protected]

For more info, call Chris Legard, (DEC LO Unit Leader), (315) 654-2147

Lets be heard LOU!

 

[Chuck Smth]

The most concern for boat fisherman seems to be in this paragraph:

 

"Based on prey consumption every 2.4 Atlantic salmon stocked in Lake Ontario would require a reduction of one Chinook salmon. Increasing the total stocking cap is dependent on concurrent increases in the Lake Ontario preyfish population, and any increases to Atlantic salmon stocking would also be dependent on competing demands by other salmon and trout fisheries."

 

That said, given the entry barriers to new fishermen to start lake trolling this would be a nice addition for our stream brethren. In the long run, if more people have access to and enjoy great fishing, the more we all win.

 

Or - do what I'd like to see, stop with the salmonids and put stripers in the lake. THAT would be a fun fishery. Bigguns!

[thork9]

Stripers don’t fight near as hard as a salmon ,get rid of LL and keep the KING

[kisutch]

Drink more Kool-Aid. Who sits in these backrooms and comes up with this crap. Oh, I missed it. The USGS. These fish, Salmo Salar, are a non starter. But still they get pushed along thru the pipeline. Somebody please take a boat ride across the lake to the Credit river and take in their nonexistent "world class" atlantic fishery. Enough of this garbage. Fix the steelhead problems and you will "right" the river fishery. Anything to put another chink in the body armor of Dr Howard Tanner. Please take all the Atlantic brood stock to the dump.

 

Kisutch 

[Gill-T]

From now until 8/14, EVERYONE on this board needs to comment on the DEC site.  Reviewing the document, however, It looks like Atlantic stocking will be the same as it has been. 

Edited July 7, 2022 by Gill-T

[Chuck Smth]

19 hours ago, thork9 said:

Stripers don’t fight near as hard as a salmon ,get rid of LL and keep the KING

That hasn't been my experience, but I respect your opinion.

 

Chuck

Edited July 7, 2022 by Chuck Smth

[Bassin Bob]

If nys had its way. The state government would cut all wildlife programs . Don't kid yourself. Sportsman are as far down the list as possible in Albany and down state.

[Tall Tails]

22 hours ago, Chuck Smth said:

The most concern for boat fisherman seems to be in this paragraph:

 

"Based on prey consumption every 2.4 Atlantic salmon stocked in Lake Ontario would require a reduction of one Chinook salmon. Increasing the total stocking cap is dependent on concurrent increases in the Lake Ontario preyfish population, and any increases to Atlantic salmon stocking would also be dependent on competing demands by other salmon and trout fisheries."

 

That said, given the entry barriers to new fishermen to start lake trolling this would be a nice addition for our stream brethren. In the long run, if more people have access to and enjoy great fishing, the more we all win.

 

Or - do what I'd like to see, stop with the salmonids and put stripers in the lake. THAT would be a fun fishery. Bigguns!

LOL!! Just to get you caught up on Great Lakes History that decision on stripers vs salmonids was made in the 1960's..  And rightly so.  As someone who has guided for both and caught plenty of both species the striper cant hold the KINGS beer!  A striper makes no blistering initial run like a king and a striper is a quiter...   

[Finnagain]

I’ll second the motion , Kings rule 
Fight can’t compare.

[thork9]

Stripers like a pike a little run and then quit!

[greenhornet73]

I agree that stripers don’t have the long fighting power of a king but as far as table fair, striper wins the battle. Then again, I haven’t tasted one from freshwater only ocean caught.

[Trouthunter]

There is a place here for our Atlantic Salmon just as there is a place for Kings , coho, steelhead & brown trout we as fishermen must keep our elected officials accountable for the will of the people & be happy for the great fishery we have here

[Chuck Smth]

Not sure I'm sold guys. Trolling for kings the fish is always in a 3mph current behind the boat that makes a fish seem to fight mor than it really does. I like to jig kings and on a drift they quit pretty easy too. Of course, that's my experience and everyone else's might not be the same.

 

What say we just pour a lot of salt in the lake and put in reef donkeys? Ain't nuthin' pulls like an AJ, lol.

[Trouthunter]

5 hours ago, Chuck Smth said:

Not sure I'm sold guys. Trolling for kings the fish is always in a 3mph current behind the boat that makes a fish seem to fight mor than it really does. I like to jig kings and on a drift they quit pretty easy too. Of course, that's my experience and everyone else's might not be the same.

 

What say we just pour a lot of salt in the lake and put in reef donkeys? Ain't nuthin' pulls like an AJ, lol.

Spring kings are off the charts hook one & you will soon find out why they are called kings

 

[Chuck Smth]

He he, I've caught one or two. 

[rolmops]

I like the idea of walking along a restored creek and seeing some small atlantic salmon. I also like the idea of having a a very athletic fish that jumps a bunch of times when hooked. The beauty of an atlantic salmon is something to behold.. Besides , at this point there is a lot of natural reproduction of kings in more than one creek. In short, there is nothing wrong with yet another type of fish to catch. I am open to see how stripers or wipers however you wish to call them will be in this lake. ( I suspect they will become salmon food) besides, I hear that atlantic salmon likes to eat gobies.

Edited July 12, 2022 by rolmops

[GAMBLER]

13 hours ago, rolmops said:

I like the idea of walking along a restored creek and seeing some small atlantic salmon. I also like the idea of having a a very athletic fish that jumps a bunch of times when hooked. The beauty of an atlantic salmon is something to behold.. Besides , at this point there is a lot of natural reproduction of kings in more than one creek. In short, there is nothing wrong with yet another type of fish to catch. I am open to see how stripers or wipers however you wish to call them will be in this lake. ( I suspect they will become salmon food) besides, I hear that atlantic salmon likes to eat gobies.

If they survived well, I'm all for having more Atlantics.  But as I pointed out in the thread on the open lake discussion, Atlantics are greatly affected by Thiamine deficiency (in both fry and adults) and mortality is high.  Atlantics will not do well until they have a more diverse diet with less alewife.  

[Gill-T]

200,000 stocked has been and continues to be a paltry amount that will continue to yield a run of maybe a few hundred fish. A nothingburger. IMO at this point the only semi-consistent “run” has been on the Salmon River. All plants should go in the Salmon if the fisheries managers want to create something. Having fishermen targeting Atlantics in skinny water like Iron-creek does not make conservation sense. Oak Orchard has too much warm frog water for spawning success. If you are going to do it right, build another building at Altmar and use some river water mixed with well water for imprinting and then stock them at the mouth.  

[rolmops]

1 hour ago, GAMBLER said:

If they survived well, I'm all for having more Atlantics.  But as I pointed out in the thread on the open lake discussion, Atlantics are greatly affected by Thiamine deficiency (in both fry and adults) and mortality is high.  Atlantics will not do well until they have a more diverse diet with less alewife.  

I see your point and it has merit. when I read the Atlantic stocking program proposal about 2 weeks ago, there were a few things that jumped out at me. First the fact that the DEC has altogether stopped stocking kings in the Sandy.I had forgotten about that. Second, that the DEC intends to use a strain of atlantics that is less sensitive to the thiamine defiency caused by alewives. Third, that the DEC thinks that because of the more diversified diet in creeks and the fact that atlantics eat gobies they think that there will be more of a chance that atlantics will thrive and start reproducing. What I miss in the DEC plan is a more aggressive approach to creek rehabilitation and restoring tree growth around creeks. As for those who go by the principal of not changing the things that seem to work well... Here's a little story. It's about my daughter who just celebrated her 40th birthday. Around 1998 she worked doing baby sitting and stuff and I suggested to her to open a savings account. She however went and bought some apple stock and such and saved it. Today I still live in the same humble home that I lived in 30 years ago and I have some savings.My daughter just bought an 8.2 million home in the heart of Silicon valley and vacations twice a year in Hawai. My point is that we should be open to change or we will slowly calcify.

Edited July 13, 2022 by rolmops

[GAMBLER]

23 minutes ago, Gill-T said:

200,000 stocked has been and continues to be a paltry amount that will continue to yield a run of maybe a few hundred fish. A nothingburger. IMO at this point the only semi-consistent “run” has been on the Salmon River. All plants should go in the Salmon if the fisheries managers want to create something. Having fishermen targeting Atlantics in skinny water like Iron-creek does not make conservation sense. Oak Orchard has too much warm frog water for spawning success. If you are going to do it right, build another building at Altmar and use some river water mixed with well water for imprinting and then stock them at the mouth.  

I agree but, Irondequoit Creek is a way better option than the Oak.  Irondequoit Creek holds trout all summer and has tons of water that the Atlantics could not be left alone in.  Its funny that we lost pen projects to ensure survival in numbers yet they don't follow the same logic with Atlantics. Another issue is the condition of the stocked Atlantics.  I have caught stocked Atlantics in the Salmon River and they look horrible.  I have not seen one with perfect fins.  Most are deformed (crooked pectoral fins, smashed dorsal fins).  They already have enough trouble surviving.  They could also focus on a better product.  The stocking numbers are close to Coho numbers and we see huge returns of coho year after year.  Like you said, Atlantics returns are minimal at best.   

[rolmops]

41 minutes ago, Gill-T said:

200,000 stocked has been and continues to be a paltry amount that will continue to yield a run of maybe a few hundred fish. A nothingburger. IMO at this point the only semi-consistent “run” has been on the Salmon River. All plants should go in the Salmon if the fisheries managers want to create something. Having fishermen targeting Atlantics in skinny water like Iron-creek does not make conservation sense. Oak Orchard has too much warm frog water for spawning success. If you are going to do it right, build another building at Altmar and use some river water mixed with well water for imprinting and then stock them at the mouth.  

Iron creek has another thing in its favor. As it winds through the Rochester suburbs, there are good long stretches where fishing is impossible because it is in suburban backyards.

[GAMBLER]

1 hour ago, rolmops said:

I see your point and it has merit. when I read the Atlantic stocking program proposal about 2 weeks ago, there were a few things that jumped out at me. First the fact that the DEC has altogether stopped stocking kings in the Sandy.I had forgotten about that. Second, that the DEC intends to use a strain of atlantics that is less sensitive to the thiamine defiency caused by alewives. Third, that the DEC thinks that because of the more diversified diet in creeks and the fact that atlantics eat gobies they think that there will be more of a chance that atlantics will thrive and start reproducing. As for those who go by the principal of not changing the things that seem to work well... Here's a little story. It's about my daughter who just celebrated her 40th birthday. Around 1998 she worked doing baby sitting and stuff and I suggested to her to open a savings account. She however went and bought some apple stock and such and saved it. Today I still live in the same humble home that I lived in 30 years ago and I have some savings.My daughter just bought an 8.2 million home in the heart of Silicon valley and vacations twice a year in Hawai. My point is that we should be open to change or we will slowly calcify.

I look at each species like investing in the stock market.  You put your money in stocks that are going to give you the biggest return for your buck.  We stock 240,000 Atlantics (2020 numbers - stocked as spring yearlings) yet the returns are dismal.  We stock 325,000 Coho (2020 numbers 235,000 fall fingerlings and 90,000 spring yearlings which survive better than the fall fingerlings)and returns to the Salmon Rover alone are great.  This will also be a one dimensional fishery for the most part.  Most will end up in the Salmon River only and no where else.  Is that what is best for the entire fishery?   The DEC keeps pouring money, resources, and bait biomass capacity on a horrible investment return wise.  This Atlantic project has been dismal for decades.  It has shown signs of slight improvement but not enough to warrant a change.  Until they can get Atlantics to be a good investment, leave the program the way it is.  In order to add more Atlantics, they will have to cut or not increase king stockings if the bait biomass grows.  Why do that when you cant get solid returns?  You could cut a successful king stock for a fish that isn't surviving to get a return on your investment.  

Edited July 13, 2022 by GAMBLER

[Gator]

I'm thinking that I remember a time when there was a robust landlock stocking program in Irondequoit Creek that went belly up due to poor returns. Isn't this an idea that's already failed once? Next thing you know, we will be re-electing Trump, or God Forbid, a retread like Vice President Joe Biden lol...

 

I love Atlantics, but they've proven to be a difficult fish to manage, anywhere they've been introduced. Anything less than a well-conceived, all-in approach that targets one stream (such as the SR) is going to be IMHO throwing $ in a hole.

[Chuck Smth]

The thiamine issue is a legit concern. I'm starting to see more and more blueback herring in the lake and I'm not sure if that will make a difference, but it could if they manage to outcompete the alewives and take over as the dominant forage. I have no idea if the thiamine issue is also associated with the blueblacks. 

[Trouthunter]

All you have to look to is the Lake Superior State College stocking of Atlantic Salmon in to the Great Lakes this program is doing great strong for thirty years something must be right here