Keys to Running a Mixed Program?

[ErieBuck]

Each trip to Lake O I try to learn and get better.  Last summer, late July, mag spoons were consistently getting bit, particularly on the long lines (300 Weighted steel).  Deep divers were probably second best with spoons but I couldn't get the flasher/fly rigs to fire very much.  My deep rigger with large spin doc and meat rig caught a few nice 20lb+ fish, but I feel I can do better to optimize the overall program.   My rigger w/ spoon caught a lot of dinks.  I don't want to give up on flasher flys because I want to catch larger fish, and I feel my meat rigs should be catching more than they do.  

 

In optimizing a mixed program like this, what are some of the details you guys pay attention to?

 

- Will you stay away from the 12" Kingfisher or Pro-Troll paddles for your deep meat rigs given the speed necessary to make the spoons sing?   What is the top speed you feel these are effective?  Perhaps I should stick with only 10" Spin Docs instead, which tend to be more speed tolerant I've read?  

- Will lengthening fly leaders behind the rotator help account for the higher speed and provide a less aggressive, more attractive whip of the fly?    I typically run ~22in behind the 8 inch spin doc.  

 

My typical program is:

- Deep Rigger: Large Paddle -- 12" pro-troll e chip or KingFisher II with Diabolical or Atomic twinkie meat rig, ~50 inches behind paddle.  I usually run this opposite probe rigger, not sure why lol.  

- Rigger w/ probe:  Spoon w/ cheater

- Wire Deep Diver #1, Mag Dipsey with 10 inch spin Doc and twinkie meat rig, ~36 inch behind.  

- Wire Deep Diver #2, Mag Dipsey with 8 inch Flasher Fly, 22" behind.

- 300 Weighted Steel with inline board, Mag Spoon 

- 300 Weighted Steel with inline board, Mag Spoon

 

This year depending on lake conditions, I may try to run a high braid diver as well.  Probably safest to run a spoon instead of FF to avoid tangles?  

 

Anyhow, I'm curious what you guys think...  

 

Thanks! 

 

 

 

[AnglingAddict]

Your meat leaders are too short in my opinion - 36" behind an attractor is way too short especially if you are running faster to generate spoon bites - we run meat and take bites up to 3 mph on the fish hawk - personally I like it slower but you shouldn't have any issues firing meat with spoons in the spread - my advice is to try and run spoons that have a wide speed tolerance so that you can dial speed back a bit so your meat works for you a little better - Michigan Stinger Stingrays are great across a large range of speeds so if I am mixing spoons into a meat program or vice versa I would probably run stingrays (everyone probably has a different opinion here).  Lengthen out your meat rigs, and fly leaders - 22-24" is a good place to start for your fly leaders - meat leaders anywhere from 50-70" swivel to hook. Longer leads on larger attractors typically but if you are crawling with respect to downspeed you might be able to get away with a shorter leader on a big paddle. 

 

Always running 300' of weighted steel doesn't make sense to me - tailor your junk lines to the most productive segment of the water column.  I never have a "typical" spread - create a spread each day that targets the depths where the fish are being seen.  You absolutely will need to make adjustments as the morning or afternoon progresses to keep up with the daily movements of salmon in the column - if you don't do that each presentation may only be fishing optimally for a short length of time each day.

 

Same comment on your riggers and dipseys - fishing higher maybe run 8" attractors - save the bigger attractors for deeper days and or later in the season.  

 

Finally - maybe consider splitting a charter with friends who might be in the same boat and talk to the captain and stress you are looking for an educational charter - there's a lot more to trolling than simply running this or that - a lot of very subtle things that can increase you catch 10 fold but you might not even realize the captain is doing it.   Good luck and keep at it.

 

 

Edited July 12, 2022 by AnglingAddict
typo

[ErieBuck]

Thanks @AnglingAddict good advice!   Good call on the Stingray's... thinner metal, more speed tolerant.   36" is for a 10" spin doc; I use 50"+ for the big 12" paddles.  I shortened them down for this season after not getting bit much on the divers last year running 10" spin doc w/ meat.  BUT Maybe the 36" recommendation I've read about for 10" spin doc is more for flys than meat; however.   Maybe my leader length from dispey to flasher is culprit, I think I ran it about 6-8 ft from dipsey to flasher... I usually don't have a crew experienced with hand lining.  My weighted steel setups can be run at 200 (~40ft) or 300 (~60ft) so I'll clip the board on the appropriate segment depending on the time of day and bite trend -- the 300WS setup was by far the biggest producer of mature kings last year for me in late July running moonshine mags.  

Edited July 12, 2022 by ErieBuck

[Pappy]

I think you would really get a lot from the Salmon Fishing School at the Greater Niagara Fishing!

I was doing ok with catch rates etc , signed up for the “school” and learned a ton.

It was a great deal, great guys and the show was really good too!

i still use my notes etc that I took that day!

[ErieBuck]

Thanks Pappy,  I’m always up for learning….There’s so much knowledge out there.  I learn something from everybody I meet, especially the senior captains out there.  Experience is everything.  So many tough guys out there who want to act like they know everything and are afraid to ask questions that make them seem vulnerable.  I have absolutely crushed salmon up there, but realize I’m only an amateur trying to have good time a few times a year… I could easily get humiliated on my next trip… but it won’t be due lack of effort and ignorance!  

[GAMBLER]

Running tackle that is comparable in speed tolerance is key.  Like Bob, I run a lot of Stingers (paint durability sucks but their blank is awesome).  I can run them down to 1.8 and up to 3.0.  On meat rigs, I like 60-72" leaders.  I also run a lot of 8" paddles instead of 10" and 11" paddles.  As for coppers, leadcore and weighted steel, I have an arsenal of coppers and leadcores to cover more conditions (I have copper rods in 200,250,300,350,400,450,500 and 550 and leadcores in 1,2 ,3 ,5, 7 ang 10 colors.  Only having one or two coppers / leadcores / weighted steel really hinders your ability to cover the water column.  

Edited July 13, 2022 by GAMBLER

[ErieBuck]

@GAMBLER do you run meat off your divers?  If so what size rotator and leader length?

[GAMBLER]

6 minutes ago, ErieBuck said:

@GAMBLER do you run meat off your divers?  If so what size rotator and leader length?

I run meat rigs off of divers, coppers and riggers.  When we won the Sandy Creek shootout in 2020, I ran 6 meat rigs with 8" paddles to start the day.  By the end of the day, it was on all 8 rods.  When meat is on fire, you cant go wrong with running lots of meat.  Like I said above, I run mostly 8" paddles.  I rarely run big stuff.  If I do, its usually off a rigger not a diver or copper.  I like longer leaders 60 -72".  I run a lot of twinkie rigs too.  

Edited July 13, 2022 by GAMBLER

[ErieBuck]

Got it thanks much, I’ll try to 8 inch this trip with the meat

[TyeeTanic]

Generally, I prefer meat rigs on the copper/weighted steel lines ... leave the spoons for the riggers, and flies on the wires.

 

[AnglingAddict]

What Brian said about leader length - most of my leads are in the 60-70" range but on occasion running clean meat on 8" attractors I have had success on shorter leads like 48-50" but nominally that's not the case....and at faster trolling speed definitely not the case. 

 

I fish the east end mostly and we do get temps that push very deep.  A few weeks ago I was running 145 and 160' of rigger cable to get to the fish.  When fishing deep I do like big attractors at least on the riggers.  Big paddles will affect depth achieved on divers and copper to an extent.

 

Like Brian also mentioned - when they want meat - they want meat.  When that happens I have it on every rod as well. 

[ErieBuck]

Im tempted to add a 400 copper for my trip….  Have 200/300.  Mid summer will need to get deep for the big boys I think.  Riggers and wire divers will reach but will nice to have some long lines get deep.  Worth it you think or too much hassle with that much line? 

[AnglingAddict]

30 minutes ago, ErieBuck said:

Im tempted to add a 400 copper for my trip….  Have 200/300.  Mid summer will need to get deep for the big boys I think.  Riggers and wire divers will reach but will nice to have some long lines get deep.  Worth it you think or too much hassle with that much line? 

Absolutely worth it.  A couple weeks ago we were running a 700 copper out of Oswego - was our best rod - takes forever to set and reel in but long coppers work.

Edited July 13, 2022 by AnglingAddict

[GAMBLER]

31 minutes ago, ErieBuck said:

Im tempted to add a 400 copper for my trip….  Have 200/300.  Mid summer will need to get deep for the big boys I think.  Riggers and wire divers will reach but will nice to have some long lines get deep.  Worth it you think or too much hassle with that much line? 

My best coppers are my 300, 500 and 550.  

[ErieBuck]

Interesting, that 80ft range isn’t as productive as 60 or 100

[ErieBuck]

you guys mess around with torpedo divers at all before?   i.e. clipping a torpedo to say a 300 copper to make it get deeper as an alternative to carrying all the different lengths.  

Edited July 13, 2022 by ErieBuck

[GAMBLER]

1 hour ago, ErieBuck said:

Interesting, that 80ft range isn’t as productive as 60 or 100

Copper length preferences depend on areas of the lake.  West end, temps are usually shallower and we don’t have to fish as deep most days.  I don’t mess with torpedos but I know guys that do just to have fewer rods to deal with. 

[Cody191]

you guys mess around with torpedo divers at all before?   i.e. clipping a torpedo to say a 300 copper to make it get deeper as an alternative to carrying all the different lengths.  

Yes I do. I have a couple 200’ weighted steels I’ve run as 300 and 400’ with torpedo attached.


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[TyeeTanic]

18 hours ago, ErieBuck said:

you guys mess around with torpedo divers at all before?   i.e. clipping a torpedo to say a 300 copper to make it get deeper as an alternative to carrying all the different lengths.  

 

I've used them to get my leadcore deeper. I generally connect them where the leader attaches to the main line ... don't want to risk a fatigue break on the leadcore (or copper in your case) from the pinching clips. Used OR16 clips to attach them to the leader.  This way you can take them off quickly (if needed), when you reel in a fish.

[ErieBuck]

That's a good call using it on leadcore...  do you have a feel for how deep you get when using it on leadcore?  For example, if I clip a 4 oz weight to the leader at the end of a 10 color setup, would I theoretically achieve 90-100 ft (10 color = ~40ft +50ft from the torpedo weight) ?

 

Snapper	5 1/2 in.	2 oz.	200 ft.	40 ft.
Shark	6 3/4 in.	4 oz.	200 ft.	54 ft.
Musky	8 1/4 in.	8 oz.	200 ft.	77 ft.
Cuda	9 1/2 in.	12 oz.	200 ft.	90 ft.

[Cody191]

My opinion is it’s much easier attaching a torpedo to the backer where it connects to your weighted line. You just let out the amount of backer it takes to get the torpedo down to where you want the extra depth.

For example, I have a 200’ ws that goes say 40’. But I want 80’. I attach a musky torpedo on backer at ws connection. Reference torpedo chart for speed and let out enough line to take torpedo to 40’. Now lure should be roughly 80’. It is close as verified by fish hawk TD.

If you attach the torpedo to the leader end of the leadcore you will change the five curve of the lead core. Who knows where it would be. You would probably have to create your own custom dive curve chart through testing.

This way also is stealthier as the torpedo is running 40’ above lure not right in front of it.


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[ErieBuck]

2 hours ago, Cody191 said:

My opinion is it’s much easier attaching a torpedo to the backer where it connects to your weighted line. You just let out the amount of backer it takes to get the torpedo down to where you want the extra depth.

For example, I have a 200’ ws that goes say 40’. But I want 80’. I attach a musky torpedo on backer at ws connection. Reference torpedo chart for speed and let out enough line to take torpedo to 40’. Now lure should be roughly 80’. It is close as verified by fish hawk TD.

If you attach the torpedo to the leader end of the leadcore you will change the five curve of the lead core. Who knows where it would be. You would probably have to create your own custom dive curve chart through testing.

This way also is stealthier as the torpedo is running 40’ above lure not right in front of it.


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My intuition was to do like you said above but it seems like the "pros" hook it near the leader knot... Russell Gahagan, Pete Alex etc.  

[Cody191]

I’m sure both can work. But to me one seems like it’s obviously a better way. Who knows, maybe I’m missing something too.


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[AnglingAddict]

Caution with the torpedo divers and clipping them onto coppers if you are running coppers on planer boards.  You most likely will have trouble passing a copper over top of a size 1 dipsey.....If you are running the copper down the chute shouldn't have any issues deploying down the chute but caution on turns should be exercised.

[chowder]

Big boards are probably worth looking at. I run a shorter core or copper all the way out and a long core next . The other side a different shorter core or copper and then a different longer copper. For instance Starboard :150 copper, 300 copper. Port: 10 color core , 400 copper.  As far as divers go I would recommend considering running inside wire divers with FF combos and outside slide divers with spoons or at least a SD on one side and wire dipsy on the other and let fish decide. As far as the riggers and meat goes , I like to mix there as well - deep rigger w/ deep meat + big paddle then stack spoon over that. Mid rigger with meat and 8” pro troll or spinny then stack a spoon at a different depth above than spoon stacker on deep rigger. Shallow rigger I usually stack 2 different size and color spoons.