best strategy when Lake O flips for salmon

[Steve.e]

I hear the lake flipped, what would be the best strategy for finding mid ten salmon for winter freezer stockpile? I'm thinking out deep where the temps may be more stable. What's your opinions guys based on experience. Thanks in advance for the help.

[GAMBLER]

Run offshore.  If its a total upwelling (41 degrees on shore which it wasn't) run until you find warm water and troll north until you find the fish.  

[J.D.]

Search mode.....

Edited August 18, 2022 by J.D.

[AnglingAddict]

First off the lake doesn't "flip" - that's a total misnomer.  What actually happens is warmer surface waters get pushed offshore and colder water fills in from underneath.  When this happens it can do one of two things - if it doesn't completely ice out it can bring salmon in closer or move them higher in the column where most people struggle to catch them  - if it gets too cold on the inside then moving out a little deeper  until you find more stable water is generally a better bet. 

[J.D.]

6 minutes ago, GAMBLER said:

 

 

Edited August 18, 2022 by J.D.

[J.D.]

Sorry for the screwed up post above.....

 

This video is a great example of what happens to the lake when the wind blows hard in the summer.

 

"red" water is warm, ...."blue" water is ice cold.

 

Assume the left side of the tank is the South US shore, the right side is the North shore in Canada.

Notice as the shoreline temps. fluctuate,  The center area stays relatively stable..  That's why the fish ( and fishermen) move offshore

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uIkJ4xu9Ego

Edited August 18, 2022 by J.D.

[HB2]

The word we that have been doing this awhile use is " flipped " . And we all know what it means.

 

I run straight north till I hit 65 deg and troll north.  

[AnglingAddict]

I know what it means - it’s just a dumb term in my opinion that doesn’t represent what’s really happening or the mechanics of it all….

Edited August 18, 2022 by AnglingAddict

[HB2]

But  in a word , everyone sure does know what it means when it happens. 

 

I just watched that video. That is not  a true representation of what happens . That video shows a tank with cold on one side and warm on the other . Then they pull a wall and it disperses . 

 

What actually happens is there is warm water on the entire surface of the lake .  The prevailing current is west to east . Then the north east wind forces water towards shore and forces the warm water north while churning up the ice water . So actually it does flip . 

 

 

 

[HB2]

And also it is my experience that fish do not like the unstable churned up water and stay in the more stable water as it gets pushed out . 

[AnglingAddict]

9 minutes ago, HB2 said:

But  in a word , everyone sure does know what it means when it happens. 

 

I just watched that video. That is not  a true representation of what happens . That video shows a tank with cold on one side and warm on the other . Then they pull a wall and it disperses . 

 

What actually happens is there is warm water on the entire surface of the lake .  The prevailing current is west to east . Then the north east wind forces water towards shore and forces the warm water north while churning up the ice water . So actually it does flip . 

 

 

 

Not exactly.  Has nothing to do with prevailing currents - everything to do with the Coriolis Effect - it’s why low pressure systems rotate counter clockwise in northern hemisphere and clockwise in Southern Hemisphere.  When wind blows east or northeast it pushes water in that direction.  The rotation of the earth causes a deflection “to the right” according to the right hand rule when dealing with vector cross products.  The resulting force causes the moving water to  deflect to the right so water moving east will deflect to the north thus the warm water near shore pushes north (when looking at it from the south shore) as water moves out It fills back in with colder water underneath and causes the temp to decline on the inside.  That’s how it actually works.  

[HB2]

I defer to you on this Sheldon 

[AnglingAddict]

 Video illustrating the Coriolis Force.
 

https://youtu.be/aeY9tY9vKgs

[schreckstoff]

Interesting AA and good video. If I understand,  you are saying CE trumps wind in driving LO currents. I’m having trouble rectifying that with what I’ve  thought of as the general LO circulation being counter clockwise. What am I missing? 
 

im all for correct terminology but I’m still not sure why “flip” or “turnover” (limnology term I’ve heard) are such poor descriptions of what happens to the thermal dynamics. 
 

 

[HB2]

When the lake is calm for a few days this time of year , there is 70 + degree water down to 50 to 70 ft . Strong west ,south or north winds may push that deeper or shallow but it doesn't make surface temps 40 . 

 

So east winds should just push the top layer around the lake clockwise like whirlpool in your scenario ? 

 

Nope , I don't buy the current has nothing to do with it . I think it has  everything to do with it . 

 

But I could be wrong . 

[bluegiller]

Yes it is kind of a flip . That cold water was down deep because no where on the lake when the wind stops blowing this time of year is 44 degrees so that cold water that's now on top at he shore sure came from under some place ..so the term flip is kind of right ..yes the entire lake does not get turned up side down ..but it forces cold water that once was down deep to be on the surface. And I have seen it before when it's first happening that close to shore the surface is colder than the down temp . It can last long that way. It it happens.

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[bluegiller]

When the lake is calm for a few days this time of year , there is 70 + degree water down to 50 to 70 ft . Strong west ,south or north winds may push that deeper or shallow but it doesn't make surface temps 40 . 
 
So east winds should just push the top layer around the lake clockwise like whirlpool in your scenario ? 
 
Nope , I don't buy the current has nothing to do with it . I think it has  everything to do with it . 
 
But I could be wrong . 

It's all caused by wind moving the water , so that's current.. all you have to do is go out the few days after when it's all getting straighted out and put a probe out troll all different directions with out changing your speed over ground and you will see how much the water is moving to be tit back to the normal temps

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[Reel Chaos]

Today trolling west without changing throttle down speed mphwas .9-1.1 head east 3.3 - 3.5 barely any wind 

[LongLine]

Lake Ontario is a double gyre body of water.  (This is what, over the centuries formed the Scotch Bonnet Ridge.)  From the Oak to Sodus, the current is generally towards the east.   While Coriolis effect has effect on water movement, as does shoreline & bottom topography, the wind is the major driver on Lake Ontario.  (Generally, the water current comes towards shore at Braddocks./Sandy)

 

Lake O currents are much stronger in the winter than in summer, per the GLERL website. They have sometimes also shown big changes in direction.   Speed can change in just a couple days.

 

If you look at this site, you'll see currently big differences in position of the thermocline at Oswego vs the Oak and wind direction.
https://upstatefreshwater.org/NRT-Data/Lake-Ontario-Data/lake-ontario-data.html

If water movement was due to Coriolis effect then temps would be much more uniform.  Which they are not.  On the 17th, 42F water was almost on shore at Olcott whereas Rochester had 64F.   

 

This morning off Rochester, I had 54F on the bottom at 95 FOW and 70F on the bottom in 50 FOW. I'm curious what other guys had. 

Here's how water got pushed today. (B,C & E) wih a SW wind.

 

 

[LongLine]

Under a no-wind condition, there are two main paths or general flows of water in Lake Ontario. (i.e., a two-gyre system).  These are attributed to the Coriolis effect which shifts flow to the right in the northern hemisphere.

 

The 1st gyre is along the south shore which flows from Wilson towards Oswego.  The second is along the north shore which flows from Toronto towards Prince Edward Island. The currents are stronger along the shorelines than offshore.  This simply because the nearshore water is warmer than the offshore depths, hence it less dense and easier to move for the expended energy.  

 

The south shore current is deflected northward at Oswego towards the St Lawrence.  However, there is too much water for it to exit the St. Lawrence so a bunch of it is deflected back to the west, out in the middle of the lake.  The north shore current is deflected southward at Prince Edward Island.  It meets up with the south shore current which is already on its way to the west.  They join up and continue westward, near the middle of the lake.  

 

Together they will eventually meet head-on with incoming water that has been directed eastward by the Coriolis effect. (Around the Scotch Bonnet Ridge) The westward flow is basically split with some of it being directed southward and where it meets up with the south shore current.  The rest is directed northward and meets up with the north shore current.

 

 Hence there are two circular currents in Lake Ontario:  South flows counterclockwise and north flows clockwise. The south shore current is predominantly faster than the North shore current simply because the south shore is shallower out farther from shore and generally warmer than the north shore.

 

The above is all with no wind.  If flow was governed by Coriolis effect, there would be no changes in water movement on Lake Ontario. 

 

Water waves on the Lake are caused by wind.  Frictional forces between the wind and the water cause the waves and water to move.  If the water didn't move then you wouldn't see breaking whitecaps on the lake, nor water breaking completely over the Charlotte pier or the break wall at Oswego.  You'd never see the water gauge at Cape Vincent rise 2 feet while the one at Olcott go down by 2 ft at the same time. (And vice versa)

 

Even though the prevailing winds in our area are out of the west, the surface winds are what cause our water waves. The prevailing winds are driven by Coriolis effect. They can be thought of as a bicycle wheel laying on its side at considerable elevation.  The surface winds can be quite different than the prevailing winds. The surface winds can be thought of as a bicycle wheel standing upright. Surface winds are caused by temperature differentials which lead to pressure differentials.  i.e warm air rises, cold air sinks.  When the surface of the water is warmer than the land then there will be an offshore wind.  When the land is warmer than the surface water there will be an onshore wind. We've all gone out early on a summer morning and experienced a nice offshore wind then around 10:00 the wind shifts.  This is because the land warmed up as the sun rose higher in the sky. i.e the temperature differential changed. 

 

Surface winds can be much more localized than the prevailing winds. We've all experienced a good south wind at Sandy Creek, yet a north wind is reported at Sodus at the same time. 

 

When the localized south wind is uniform from a relatively large swath of land, say from Wilson to Oswego, it will push a lot of surface waves and water to the Canadian side, via friction.  The water column will actually rise along the Canadian shore.  This additional water pushes downward. (gravity) The water at the bottom of the water column has to go somewhere as water is not compressible and it is constrained by the lake bottom, hence it "squirts" towards the south.  The water at the top of the Canadian water column can't go back south as it is being pushed northward by the wind's frictional forces.  Water to the east & west of it is also being pushed northward. As the bottom water "squirts, it pushes water from the middle/bottom of the lake towards the south shore.  This is basic hydraulics and hence what we call (somewhat misleadingly) "flipping." 

 

 Are surface winds affected by Coriolis effect?  Depends on the direction of the wind.  Out of the south then yes.  If out of the west then no. Additionally, the You-tube talks about 30 degrees of longitude difference starting at the equator and 136 MPH surface speed difference.  Lake Ontario, at 43.1, is less than one longitude degree wide so deflection is a lot less than the video discusses.