We need more fish

[King Davy]

SpoonFed, I’d love to see DEC stock 1.8 million salmon again. And I don’t doubt they would if the science and data of all the work USGS and MNR is collecting on the forage trawls told them the food source is healthy. But it’s not. And it’s that simple. Are they leaning to the side of caution, sure. Do you really want the average size of salmon to drop into the low teens, and then fall off?

 

Lake Ontario is going to be managed by fishery biologists who collect data to help them make decisions. It has always been that way.

 

as Far as TU they are involved in all aspects of cold water fisheries in NY, both inland and on the Great Lakes. But as far as the steelhead regs and Steve Hurst was in the room at their annual conference, they did NOT take a stand as an organization on commenting. They left it up to individuals to decide if they were or were not in favor and to decide personally to comment or not. 
 

You’re alway great at just shooting from the hip never ever getting it right, or hitting the target.

[Legacy]

I love these threads!!!!

[Legacy]

I think it is very important for everyone to read this from start to finish. Many of the decisions now are based on this data.

 

http://www.glfc.org/pubs/lake_committees/ontario/Weideletal_AprilPreyFishSurveyAlewifeAssess2022.pdf?fbclid=IwAR1hfVH3VE8xjOu8az1YILo7pbU4pE7SkbA-e-r-QKEC5oBDu2iangxp0uU

[King Davy]

THANK YOU!!!! For providing.

[rolmops]

My big problem here is the fact that the people working to increase the stocking numbers are charter boat captains. They have a financial interest. A lot of commercial and charter people on the Atlantic coast fought for more fish and in their short sighted financial greed they destroyed the cod stocks . To all you charter boat captains. You should be wise guardians not short term profit seekers.

 

[Gill-T]

The lake has changed. It is more Niagara-centric than ever before. Ask fishermen that fish Fair Haven or in Canadian waters how much bait they see. They will tell a different story. Fish are more concentrated. Michigan is similar with feast or famine. Now more than ever you need a trailerable boat to chase the bite. Long gone are the days you can make good boxes year’round out of every port. Lakes are getting cleaner up river not dirtier. Adapt or perish. Michigan anglers have adapted fishing techniques for when the fish are plastered to the bottom offshore.  The winner of the derby on Lake Michigan won out of a 17’ boat taking fish out of both Wisconsin and Michigan ports chasing the bite. The DEC can’t tell the fish to spread out. If you put more fish in the system it doesn’t mean they will park themselves off Oswego. They still will be to the west most of the season. 

[Gill-T]

Dbl post on Alewife survey link. Please remove. 

Edited October 11, 2022 by Gill-T

[whaler1]

Gobies too but it is what it is.  

[whaler1]

On 10/7/2022 at 7:44 AM, Yankee Troller said:

If there is SOOOOOOOO much bait out there then why our the fish so small? You would think the 20lb fish we caught in April/May would have surpassed 30lbs by August? I don't think we caught one over 25lbs this season. That's awful! 

 

Here's an observation. I'm pretty good with my electronics and I have all the various types on my boat. Traditional sonar tends to make things look grossly oversized. Watching bait on those lower frequencies it may seem like there is a lot of it. When I get offshore and utilize my side imaging/down imaging it gives me a much better idea of the size of the bait pods. The one thing I noticed this season was how small those bait pods were compared to previous years.

 

The other thing I've noticed the last 10-15 years is our fishery has changed. Back in the day July, August, and September were the months we made hay on salmon. West end fishing was good most of the season and the East end got hot in July and lasted the rest of the season. Check out the Spring Salmon fishery we've had over the last half a dozen seasons all over the lake. You can go out and target Salmon in April - May from Oswego to the Niagara Bar. It's almost looks like we've trading a Fall fishery for a Spring fishery.

In 2001 16 of the top 20 Kings in the Fall Derby were over 40. 
I remember back in the day ****ing about another 25 pounder. 
I believe bait isn’t the only factor. 

Edited October 10, 2022 by whaler1

[brucehookedup]

On 10/8/2022 at 10:41 PM, spoonfed-1 said:

You spew the same thing every fall King Davy. Lets try being honest for once. 20 % reduction 3 years straight have reduced the # of salmon by. lets see......, 60 %. We need more fish not less. Every excuse the dec can come up with to reduce stocking numbers they use and you justify it every fall. Never mind the excuses, the fact is the salmon fishery is in decline. And no, I didn't forget how to catch salmon. Didn't you get TU involved in the steelhead limit reduction in the lake? Most of those people never fished LO.

[brucehookedup]

Just now, brucehookedup said:

On 10/8/2022 at 10:41 PM, spoonfed-1 said:

You spew the same thing every fall King Davy. Lets try being honest for once. 20 % reduction 3 years straight have reduced the # of salmon by. lets see......, 60 %. We need more fish not less. Every excuse the dec can come up with to reduce stocking numbers they use and you justify it every fall. Never mind the excuses, the fact is the salmon fishery is in decline. And no, I didn't forget how to catch salmon. Didn't you get TU involved in the steelhead limit reduction in the lake? Most of those people never fished LO.

you are correct

 

[King Davy]

On 10/9/2022 at 8:42 AM, Legacy said:

I think it is very important for everyone to read this from start to finish. Many of the decisions now are based on this data.

 

http://www.glfc.org/pubs/lake_committees/ontario/Weideletal_AprilPreyFishSurveyAlewifeAssess2022.pdf?fbclid=IwAR1hfVH3VE8xjOu8az1YILo7pbU4pE7SkbA-e-r-QKEC5oBDu2iangxp0uU

I

[King Davy]

Yeah the math is simple. Never debated it. 1.8 million down to about 900k. But there were two banner years of natural repo on the salmon not to mention other rivers. The DEC and MNR HAS to take those fish into account in determining impact on forage. 
 

Tell tale survival of yearling king salmon appeared to be off the charts this year. I’ve never seen anything like it. And I read report after report lake wide of the same high catch rates. I would imagine that’s why so many Young bait fish were being cropped off faster. 
 

You are either in the camp of sound yet cautionary management practices by scientists to maintain a viable fishery looking more than just one year out at a time……… or your not
 

 

[Gill-T]

I think we all can agree this year class of three year old kings was weak. What we can debate is the poor three year old numbers may show what can happen from an over reliance on less predictable natural reproduction on a given year. Conversely, if there were less fish in the system, why were the fish smaller?

[Gill-T]

https://www.dec.ny.gov/outdoor/111196.html
 

from 2020, sheds some light into why size was down. 

[Gill-T]

2019 history 

https://pubs.er.usgs.gov/publication/70204588

[Capt Vince Pierleoni]

On 10/7/2022 at 10:52 AM, BSmaster said:

I was just telling someone this morning how things change.  In the 80s, 30#rs were average.  Now, that's a trophy.  Small to mid size streams were hot in the beginning of OCT and totally done by November.  Now, 20lbs is a good fish and it heats up later in OCT and fresh salmon are caught into the following year.  Water temps and precipitation.  I remember snow and having to wear a winter coat and water everywhere.  I have witnessed some people wading with cargo pants because its so warm and creeks are crystal clear.  I can't comment on the lake fishing but definitely the stream fishing is different.

 

I can go into how hunting has changed too... but I don't feel like typing that much. 

This is a common fallacy. 30 lbers were never "average". I fished a heavy schedule starting in 1985 and the best season we had for 30lb kings was 1989 with two dozen landed. Most of those were 30-32lbs and I was big on accurate scales as I've always been into record keeping. 

If we are being honest, no matter where we come in on which side of the debate is the size of age 3 Chinooks has changed very little over the course of 40 yrs. What HAS changed is the age structure of the mature Chinook population. 

The original strain of Chinook planted was predominantly represented by fish maturing at 3 1/2 years old. There was always some "jacks", males maturing at 1 1/2 years old, some males and females maturing in their 2nd year at 2 1/2 yrs old, and a small percentage maturing at 4 1/2 years old that usually resulted in exceptionally large specimens. 

Today, with the necessary movement towards using holding pens(due to the exploding number of predators at stocking sites) we are seeing a large uptick in Chinooks maturing in their 2nd year as 2.5 yr olds, usually 12-17lbs. I believe this is due to the protection and fast start by regular high quality feedings. It is the opinion of many that the vastly increased survival and the action they provide anglers is well worth the trade off. Now, this isn't ALL of the fish from any pen, just an increased number. 3.5 and 4.5 yr old Chinooks still contribute but in much smaller percentages because the intelligent angling pressure on both the NY southshore and the Ontario Canada Northshore has DRAMATICALLY increased. Everyone wants to target Kings(Chinooks) everyday, all season whenever they are even remotely within boating range. Networking and online information is at an all time high, the fleet on Lake Ontario has changed incredibly with large ocean built sportfishing vessels and modern trailerable rigs with large 4 stroke outboards capable of long ranges. Electronics are better than ever, line is better than ever, hooks are better than ever--the pressure on Chinook is in a completely different realm than it was in the "discovery years" in the 80's. Daily targeting of Chinook April--September did not happen back then.  So what does this mean to this conversation?

It stands to reason that "the fleet" is cropping off Chinook that may be destined to become mature at 3.5 or 4.5 years old--well before that. There is no right or wrong with this--more people are enjoying the fishery with greater competence than ever before--it just is what it is. Out sized specimens can still exist but with a greater proportion maturing earlier due to fast growth or adaptation coupled with the intense pressure now on any potential older maturing Chinooks it is the new normal.

Some suggest cutting stocking to produce bigger fish but the fishery wouldnt result in bigger fish because of extra bait per fish. It would result in bigger fish if the action was slow enough to make many hang it up, seeking other fishing opportunities elsewhere. This would leave that tiny population of  potential "30 lbers" to survive their 1st year, 2nd year, and ultimately their 3rd or 4th Summer to reach their ultimate size. Again, in our current fishery, this woulld still remain a small percentage that would even have the potential. Many if left unharvested would still mature in their 2nd year. 

The Lake is a tale of two strains of Chinook. The natural strain is adapted to our Lake and trib environment. This population experiences wild swings as some hatches are great and others poor. The majority of these fish originate from the Salmon river and Eastern tribs. Early in their life they are caught all over the lake. From mid Summer on any maturing fish will be in the Eastern end of Lake Ontario. Anglers fishing the central and Western end of the South shore are dependent on stocked fish to provide a returning fishery of Chinook. With todays intense pressure on Salmon lakewide, and predation by warmwater predator fish and Cormorants at release sites, this number has become much less significant.  This is the new normal. 

For anglers relying on stocked sites for their returns, the best course of action is to provide the best pen projects possible along with preventing cormorants from eating the released fingerling Chinooks before they are done smolting. Yes, of course another approach is to bump up stocking numbers to provide a higher escapement rate for the released fingerlings.            

[HB2]

Great assessment  of the current king  situation Capt Vinny . 

 

I agree and have been saying a lot of what you pointed out  for a while . 

 

I also believe the natural reproduced fish have adapted to the lakes ecosystem and  are surviving better . 

 

I feel a lot of the fish I have been catching in my trib are nat reproduce . As we were stripped of our pen fish for the greater good . But we can't know that because the stocked fish are not marked . 

 

The efficiency of the modern trolling fleet coupled with the many tournaments lake wide depletes  many of the larger fish . 

 

Back in the day there were 3 times the kings stocked but we did not catch the numbers season long we do now . 

 

Also , there is a lot of trib angler bashing on this site . Seems to me with the above post , those trib angles could have a lot to say . 

 

 

[Yankee Troller]

8 hours ago, Capt Vince Pierleoni said:

So what does this mean to this conversation?

It stands to reason that "the fleet" is cropping off Chinook that may be destined to become mature at 3.5 or 4.5 years old--well before that. There is no right or wrong with this--more people are enjoying the fishery with greater competence than ever before--it just is what it is.

 

If you look at the data from the angler survey over the years angler hours are at an all time low, so I have to disagree with you on that. I will agree the guys out there are much better than they once were.

[tuffishooker]

Ditto on the cormorant cull Captain Vince !!!

[GAMBLER]

Size could be down for a bunch of reasons.  We had stocking cuts and the bait biomass was lower than it should have been.  This year class of kings had to exert more energy its entire life to eat.  Last year the biomass rebounded with a giant year class from the years prior hatch.  The kings ate well but they were exerting more energy to fill their stomachs (eating smaller alewife).  Lets see what happens in the next two seasons to the size.  If the year classes of kings that started life with the higher biomass levels have more food available, the size should rebound some.   As for the comment about the fishery being run on fishermen's opinion, isn't that what they did with the steelhead regulations? 

[Gill-T]

1 hour ago, GAMBLER said:

As for the comment about the fishery being run on fishermen's opinion, isn't that what they did with the steelhead regulations? 

Good pull Brian. So true. My own observations about the up and comers would be the shakers look like typical shakers. The 1.5 year olds this August were fat fat fat (3 times for emphasis).  It would appear the record crop of YOY alewives last year are getting chomped and next years two year olds should be the beneficiary. Adult kings prefer the 4-5.5” size of alewives so I can see why the adults this year were small and did not benefit from last years bumper crop of bait. 

[GAMBLER]

8 hours ago, HB2 said:

Great assessment  of the current king  situation Capt Vinny . 

 

I agree and have been saying a lot of what you pointed out  for a while . 

 

I also believe the natural reproduced fish have adapted to the lakes ecosystem and  are surviving better . 

 

I feel a lot of the fish I have been catching in my trib are nat reproduce . As we were stripped of our pen fish for the greater good . But we can't know that because the stocked fish are not marked . 

 

The efficiency of the modern trolling fleet coupled with the many tournaments lake wide depletes  many of the larger fish . 

 

Back in the day there were 3 times the kings stocked but we did not catch the numbers season long we do now . 

 

Also , there is a lot of trib angler bashing on this site . Seems to me with the above post , those trib angles could have a lot to say . 

 

 

I highly doubt Sandy has good natural reproduction.  The fish in Sandy are more than likely strays from other stocking sites.  Back in the day 3 times the fish were stocked BUT, we didn't have as much natural reproduction and we have better stocking practices than we did in the 80's.  Pen rearing has increased survival big time.  Pen reared compared to direct stocked fish the survival rate is 3 to1 from what I can remember from the meetings.  Seeing that salmon are spawning at 2 and 3 compared to 3 and 4 like the old days, fish size is going to be down.  

[GAMBLER]

Here is a graph from the 2019 state of the lake meeting.  If you look back in the 2000’s and froward, you will see the jump in 2 year olds as the majority that are spawning compared three year olds that are the majority.  

[HB2]

25 minutes ago, GAMBLER said:

I highly doubt Sandy has good natural reproduction.  The fish in Sandy are more than likely strays from other stocking sites.  

Brian , you can have your opinion , I have mine . 

 

We were told way back when that spawning salmon don't bite  and they won't natural reproduce . 

 

Both were proved wrong . 

 

Sandy has the best habitat by far to natural  reproduce any fish . There may not be a lot , but I believe there are some . 

 

Last year water flows were very high which IMO is good . And please don't tell me about smolt , temp ,etc . These kings are in the creek at 75 degree water .  If the eggs hatch , they have a chance and some will survive . That's mother nature's way .