We need more fish

[BSmaster]

James Haynes

Emeritus-Professor

[email protected]

 

I haven't talked to him since I graduated (93).  He changed the whole way I looked at pollution.  He knows and if he doesn't know,  I doubt anybody does.  Send him an e-mail.  I remember Lake O was a passion of his.  I am pretty sure he will respond if he has time.

 

I respect everyone and their input.  I believe there are many variables happening simultaneously - enough where cause and effect is a just an educated opinion and not facts.

[GAMBLER]

19 minutes ago, BSmaster said:

James Haynes

Emeritus-Professor

[email protected]

 

I haven't talked to him since I graduated (93).  He changed the whole way I looked at pollution.  He knows and if he doesn't know,  I doubt anybody does.  Send him an e-mail.  I remember Lake O was a passion of his.  I am pretty sure he will respond if he has time.

 

I respect everyone and their input.  I believe there are many variables happening simultaneously - enough where cause and effect is a just an educated opinion and not facts.

He retired last I knew.  

[BSmaster]

I pulled that off from the staff and faculty at Brockport site.

[Legacy]

He retired last I knew.  

He has been retired for a long time

Sent from my moto z4 using Lake Ontario United mobile app

[Traveling Circus]

7 Matures from the oak yesterdar afternoon....... no juvis....... maybe its a SC phenomenon, or maybe its associated with fish holding closer to the lake.......4 with scars.

[HB2]

 Got 2 dinks this morning 

 

Maybe it's Natural reproduction evolution . 

[Sk8man]

The lampricide treatment process is a lot more complicated than just staff and funding for a body of water as large as Lake O with its crazy weather patterns and numerous streams etc. Often there is a very small window of time that the certified people can apply the lampricide and it has to be done under very specific water and weather conditions and only by those approved personnel. If done under "marginal" conditions there can be collateral kill of non target organisms and fish as well as dissolution of the chemicals making the application ineffective.  Who knows how many of these adult lamprey came up through the St. Lawrence each year as well and is this on the increase? The problems on Lake O are not unique. The Finger Lakes hooked up to the canal system are having significant problems with the lamprey concentrations too and overall all these bodies are under siege by various aquatic invasives both vegetative and others. If we step back a bit it is also apparent that there are things going on of a much wider scope in our environment. Many critical species are disappearing from our environment such as bees and birds, frogs, and other amphibians and mammals. The very character of the water has changed in recent decades and weed growth and distribution patterns that host much of the food web has been drastically impacted. Many lakes no longer have the same food bases they have had in the past. The focus is on Lake O but I think we have a much larger and more serious set of problems facing us.

Edited October 16, 2022 by Sk8man

[GAMBLER]

2 hours ago, Sk8man said:

The lampricide treatment process is a lot more complicated than just staff and funding for a body of water as large as Lake O with its crazy weather patterns and numerous streams etc. Often there is a very small window of time that the certified people can apply the lampricide and it has to be done under very specific water and weather conditions and only by those approved personnel. If done under "marginal" conditions there can be collateral kill of non target organisms and fish as well as dissolution of the chemicals making the application ineffective.  Who knows how many of these adult lamprey came up through the St. Lawrence each year as well and is this on the increase? The problems on Lake O are not unique. The Finger Lakes hooked up to the canal system are having significant problems with the lamprey concentrations too and overall all these bodies are under siege by various aquatic invasives both vegetative and others. If we step back a bit it is also apparent that there are things going on of a much wider scope in our environment. Many critical species are disappearing from our environment such as bees and birds, frogs, and other amphibians and mammals. The very character of the water has changed in recent decades and weed growth and distribution patterns that host much of the food web has been drastically impacted. Many lakes no longer have the same food bases they have had in the past. The focus is on Lake O but I think we have a much larger and more serious set of problems facing us.

We are seeing a huge increase in population because lampricide treatments were not done due to covid.  There is more that can be done than lampricide treatments to help this situation.  There are attractants and repellants that can be used.  They could use attractants in certain less fertile tribs along with lamprey traps to catch adults.  They can also use repellents to keep lamprey out of the most fertile tribs.  Using just lampricide with the current adult population isn't enough.  This multi million dollar a year fishery should get more effort to keep it as good as it can be.  The DEC does a great job but we could ALWAYS do better.  Lamprey predation on our fish populations is not going to help keep the fishery top notch.  Look at what the lamprey did to some of the fingerlakes in the past.  

[Sk8man]

The lampricide doesn't kill adult lampreys it is targeted at the ammocetes (larval stage) that live in the stream bottoms and lake/stream deltas.  I agree that a multifaceted approach is the way to go.

[rolmops]

On 10/16/2022 at 12:09 PM, Sk8man said:

The lampricide doesn't kill adult lampreys it is targeted at the ammocetes (larval stage) that live in the stream bottoms and lake/stream deltas.  I agree that a multifaceted approach is the way to go.

What Gambler is talking about is very interesting and it shows that some researchers tried to think like lamprey in order to most effectively kill them. It uses what to Lamprey are "sweet fun loving smells" coming out of creeks and these creeks will attract lamprey that will go in there to breed , but once a bit of a way inside they get caught in weir nets, and removed from the water to get killed and turned into fertilizer. They never get a chancre to breed. The "dead" smell is used in other creeks and lamprey that would normally go into these creeks to breed will not enter because of the "dead" hormonal smell.

The best parts of this treatment are A: that it is cheap compared to current treatment and B: that it can be used under most weather conditions. It is beyond me why the DEC does not use this system although I suspect that it is not profitable for the lampricide producer(s) so those folks are probably pulling their political weight to protect their financial interests.

Edited October 18, 2022 by rolmops

[GAMBLER]

On 10/16/2022 at 12:09 PM, Sk8man said:

The lampricide doesn't kill adult lampreys it is targeted at the ammocetes (larval stage) that live in the stream bottoms and lake/stream deltas.  I agree that a multifaceted approach is the way to go.

 I totally understand that lampricide doesn't kill adults.  The treatments were not completed due to covid a couple years ago.  The adult population is now high from those year classes.  Its down right ugly the amount of adult Lamprey in Lake O right now.  I'm worried it will cause mortality in Browns and Lakers.  It seems to affect them the most from what I have seen over the years.  If we go back to the original topic on stocking, Lower stocking numbers and mortality rates that are higher due to lamprey predation, its going to be an ugly road ahead.  At the state of the lake meeting years ago, I believe it was Vince that said "we need to take better care of the fish we stock".  That is 100% spot on.  The DEC has worked with us to get the fish all in pens and helping survival.  Now we need them to step up and 1) control the adult and future lamprey populations and 2) open a season on cormorants in NY!  Canada has opened a season and you can take 50 birds a day.  I will gladly buy steel shot, a duck stamp, get my HIP certification and spend days on the water ridding the world of a nasty bird that is destroying fish populations and habitat along the shoreline.  

[brucehookedup]

I agree we need to fix the cormorant problem as well as the lampreys. That are the two most important.  The survival of our very expensive and time consuming fish we stock is what we all want. What i am saying till these "killers" get taken care of, which will be years to fix the issues, they should be putting in more fish ONLY cause of the mortality we are all seeing in the big pond and tribs.

[brucehookedup]

I bay 

[Sk8man]

You are exactly right Brian

[GAMBLER]

10 hours ago, brucehookedup said:

I bay 

This is a perfect example of why we need Cormorant control.  

[HB2]

After reading all this, IMO , the best course of action going forward is to re-up the creek lampry treatments . The horse is out of the barn as far as the adults go so let them age out unless it's NOT an effort of futility trying to kill them . 

 

Spend the money and concentrate efforts on a new  state of the art hatchery . 

 

I gave up hunting long ago because I'd rather trib fish and other reasons . But I'd be all in with my 12 gauge 1100 killing as many of those slimy bastards as possible 

[ifishy]

Adults have a very short lifespan the ones in the lake now will be dead next year stream treatments are the best tool there is research around attractants and repellents but it is by no means complete and there are not established protocols around using them. They show a lot of promise but lake ontario is a bad place to experiment due to its size and number of variables we very much need good conditions for a treatment this spring so we do t get consecutive large hatches and a treatment within 3 years so this year's adults spawning run doesn't produce a huge class of young

[Yankee Troller]

9 minutes ago, joehandersson said:

do the Atlantic Salmon they keep getting bigger & bigger need more of these & steelhead

 

 

Atlantic's = Waste of resources with very little return on investment

[brucehookedup]

I’m with you Rick,Atlantics are a BIG waste of time and money. The returns are non existent for the most part. 

[tuffishooker]

Ditto on the Atlantic  ! Their plan has not worked to date !

[King Davy]

Check with the stream DEC creel guys. I fished a PHW event last weekend with them. There have been great catches of Landlocks in Sandy and oak orchard since mid October. The creel census for oak orchard alone in 2019-2020 netted 2,700 Atlantic salmon caught. 
 

they are a river oriented fish. And with only 120k total planted how would you expect to see lots of them. As far as wasted resource it’s the Feds who are invested. Yes DEC raises some salmon at the ADK hatchery for mostly the finger lakes where they have both a solid lake and trib fishery 

 

20k salmon planted at the oak and Sandy each. Let’s plant 20k kings at the Oak and see what the fishing looks like. 
 

every year it’s the same nonsense you guys making the same tired rhetoric. Make a phone call talk to Scott Prindle at DEC. Get some actual facts. Are they going to be a big player on the lake? No, are they  great in the  tribs… absolutely.

 

And what’s so terrible about that? 

Edited November 12, 2022 by King Davy

[tuffishooker]

Not sure of the " same nonsense " you refer to King Davy !  The fact as I posted has not happened ! Very few Atlantics are being caught in Lake Ontario ! I do not fish the " tribs " so I have not comment !

[GAMBLER]

2 hours ago, King Davy said:

Check with the stream DEC creel guys. I fished a PHW event last weekend with them. There have been great catches of Landlocks in Sandy and oak orchard since mid October. The creel census for oak orchard alone in 2019-2020 netted 2,700 Atlantic salmon caught. 
 

 

If you believe 2,700 Atlantics were caught, I got ocean front property to sell you in Arizona.  1). How many were misidentified 2). how many times was a handful over fish caught over and over and over again?  Let be real Dave, those numbers are not even remotely accurate.  

[King Davy]

Of course there wasn’t 2,700 salmon in the Oak. There were several 100 that were caught and released several times. . What you don’t seem to grasp is that the fish that were present created a viable fishery for the anglers (the many anglers) who fished it from Sept. through the following April. I personally caught 10 landlock salmon in that period several 

in the winter months where these fish in 34 degree water jumped four feet in the air and tore off a 100 yards of line. 
 

memorable fish . 

[GAMBLER]

7 minutes ago, King Davy said:

Of course there wasn’t 2,700 salmon in the Oak. There were several 100 that were caught and released several times. . What you don’t seem to grasp is that the fish that were present created a viable fishery for the anglers (the many anglers) who fished it from Sept. through the following April. I personally caught 10 landlock salmon in that period several 

in the winter months where these fish in 34 degree water jumped four feet in the air and tore off a 100 yards of line. 
 

memorable fish . 

You classify a viable fishery a couple hundred fish when 200,000 plus stocked per year with multiple year classes returning at the same time?  Just imagine if these fish actually survived as well as the other trout and salmon stocked in Lake Ontario.