We need more fish

[King Davy]

They stock 850k king salmon. 111k out of the pens in a place like oak orchard. Plus the wild fish produced. And we may have a couple 100 fish total that returned this year. 
 

out in the lake you have at least three year classes of fish, well over a million a year from stocking and wild fish and how many did you catch? 100’s. Dozens, maybe 20 to 30 all season.

 

what do you think the survival rate is of these fish ? 10%. 5%. Five  percent of 200k fish is at most 10k fish spread out all over the lake. 
 

Here’s the bottom line. This is a heritage species. If you have any sense of history of lake Ontario this was the greatest in land Atlantic salmon fishery on the planet. Man f’d it all up. How can you not be interested in some effort to try and create even a minor resurrection of our LO history. Whom is it hurting? How are you being impacted negatively?
 

just because YOU don’t care about them or can’t catch them doesn’t mean I and many other trib anglers aren’t interested in catching them and or trying to bring back this historical fish that is revered in every other watershed in the world it swims. It’s just NOT all about everyone. Just like Chinook salmon isn’t revered by everyone.

 

we have a wonderful diverse fishey that has some thing for everyone. Not just for a select few. Get over it.

[GAMBLER]

7 minutes ago, King Davy said:

They stock 850k king salmon. 111k out of the pens in a place like oak orchard. Plus the wild fish produced. And we may have a couple 100 fish total that returned this year. 
 

out in the lake you have at least three year classes of fish, well over a million a year from stocking and wild fish and how many did you catch? 100’s. Dozens, maybe 20 to 30 all season.

 

what do you think the survival rate is of these fish ? 10%. 5%. Five  percent of 200k fish is at most 10k fish spread out all over the lake. 
 

Here’s the bottom line. This is a heritage species. If you have any sense of history of lake Ontario this was the greatest in land Atlantic salmon fishery on the planet. Man f’d it all up. How can you not be interested in some effort to try and create even a minor resurrection of our LO history. Whom is it hurting? How are you being impacted negatively?
 

just because YOU don’t care about them or can’t catch them doesn’t mean I and many other trib anglers aren’t interested in catching them and or trying to bring back this historical fish that is revered in every other watershed in the world it swims. It’s just NOT all about everyone. Just like Chinook salmon isn’t revered by everyone.

 

we have a wonderful diverse fishey that has some thing for everyone. Not just for a select few. Get over it.

The returns were dismal on the entire West end of Lake O.  Why?  My guess would be lack of imprinting (Pen rearing doesn't help much with imprinting only survival rate) and they returned to the Salmon River (the run was awesome according to the reports). I am interested in restoring native species but to dump Atlantics in year after year and have minimal returns is not getting the job done.   Atlantics are more prone to Thiamine deficiency than all the other Lake O trout and salmon.  As long as there are alewife, Atlantics will struggle to survive.   The .04 Atlantics per boat trip is a great asset to the fishery....  How long has this program been going on and it is still not much better than it was a decade ago.  The Atlantic program does affect every stakeholder on Lake Ontario.  Instead of dumping money and resources into a program this is still spinning its wheels after decades of trying, they could put it into species that we get returns out of.  Until the Atlantic survival rate is as good as other species, you are going to get pushback from the majority of Lake O anglers.  You will just have to get over it.  

[King Davy]

So we have millions of king salmon and and less than 10% survive to return to rivers to spawn and you want to put that up again 150k stocked AS annually to where a few thousand survive. And you want to talk about survival struggles. I think both species have hurdles to overcome. For instance we don’t have big salmon anymore. Haven’t had notable numbers of high 30’s to 40 pound fish since the early 2000’s or essentially 20 years. Because there are several issues in the LO environment that hasn’t been overcome. Why don’t you fixate on that for once.

 

The powers that be running the LO fishery have decided they are all in on AS. Good bad or indifferent that’s the play. So stop whining and just fish for what ever is your passion and I’ll do the same. I catch them, I enjoy them and I guess you don’t.  Oh well.

 

Go do some actual research. The program has not been running at its current rate for ever. It’s started and stopped for Decades. At present for the first time in forever the State in conjunction with the Feds actually has a management plan which they didn’t have in the past. 

this fishery is  ever changing and evolving . You should do the same.

Edited November 13, 2022 by King Davy

[GAMBLER]

3 minutes ago, King Davy said:

So we have millions of king salmon and and less than 10% survive to return to rivers to spawn and you want to put that up again 150k stocked AS annually to where a few thousand survive. And you want to talk about survival struggles. I think both species have hurdles to overcome. For instance we don’t have big salmon anymore. Haven’t had notable numbers of high 30’s to 40 pound fish since the early 2000’s or essentially 20 years. Because there are several issues in the LO environment that hasn’t been overcome. Why don’t you fixate on that for once.

 

The powers that be running the LO fishery have decided they are all in on AS. Good bad or indifferent that’s the play. So stop whining and just fish for what ever is your passion and I’ll do the same. I catch them, I enjoy them and I guess you don’t.  Oh well.

 

Go do some actual research. The program has not been running at its current rate for ever. It’s started and stopped for Decades. At present for the first time in forever the State in conjunction with the Feds actually has a management plan which they didn’t have in the past. 

this fishery is  ever changing and evolving . You should do the same.

Less than 10% survive?    Nice try Dave. I really enjoy the one atlantic a year on average.  They taste great too.  I have been evolving with this fishery since I started in 1983 and didn't give up when the fishery had its down swings.  

[King Davy]

I’d love for the state to only stock 120k kings a year and see what the impact  would be on the lake fishery.

 

Could you afford a tournament every weekend of the summer?  Plus the high effort to catch them every day of the boating season to in the end hoping enough fish return to the Hatchey to recruit the next year class. Woukd the limit still be three a day. Would you sign up for that Brian? 
 

cause you think a high average of those four to six inch fish survive to become adult fish. Would you be willing to play the same game the AS are in? 
 

line up and tell the DEC you only need 120k fish a year that because most of them live to run home to a river you’ll be good. Heck then we can raise coaster Brook trout, pink salmon and sockeyes with all the hatchery space we’ll have.

 

this isn’t an apples to apples comparison. You will never have a super sport fishery with 120k fish. The feds and the DEC are starting a new path  and management initiative to find a strain that thrives in this environment.  The science behind this hasn’t been in play YOY. 
 

and today we do have fish returning and getting caught to the delight of many anglers. You don’t fish for them in rivers so you don’t know what is actually going on. And a river angler isn’t a boat guy trying to fill a cooler. It’s a whole different dynamic. The last three days we guided two guys from Rhode Island. We fished around anglers from Tennessee. Ohio, and three from Montana. Four Landlocks were caught that I know of. One about 10 pounds. A magnificent fish. Many browns were caught as well. But those folks couldn’t stop talking about that one  fish. For them it was cool, it was exciting. For them it was good enough.

 

Don’t you worry Brian. We are good that they are in unicorn status for now. At least we know they are around. And we can fish for them. It’s the hunt that still makes it exciting.

 

 

 

Edited November 13, 2022 by King Davy

[GAMBLER]

10 hours ago, King Davy said:

I’d love for the state to only stock 120k kings a year and see what the impact  would be on the lake fishery.

 

Could you afford a tournament every weekend of the summer?  Plus the high effort to catch them every day of the boating season to in the end hoping enough fish return to the Hatchey to recruit the next year class. Woukd the limit still be three a day. Would you sign up for that Brian? 
 

cause you think a high average of those four to six inch fish survive to become adult fish. Would you be willing to play the same game the AS are in? 
 

line up and tell the DEC you only need 120k fish a year that because most of them live to run home to a river you’ll be good. Heck then we can raise coaster Brook trout, pink salmon and sockeyes with all the hatchery space we’ll have.

 

this isn’t an apples to apples comparison. You will never have a super sport fishery with 120k fish. The feds and the DEC are starting a new path  and management initiative to find a strain that thrives in this environment.  The science behind this hasn’t been in play YOY. 
 

and today we do have fish returning and getting caught to the delight of many anglers. You don’t fish for them in rivers so you don’t know what is actually going on. And a river angler isn’t a boat guy trying to fill a cooler. It’s a whole different dynamic. The last three days we guided two guys from Rhode Island. We fished around anglers from Tennessee. Ohio, and three from Montana. Four Landlocks were caught that I know of. One about 10 pounds. A magnificent fish. Many browns were caught as well. But those folks couldn’t stop talking about that one  fish. For them it was cool, it was exciting. For them it was good enough.

 

Don’t you worry Brian. We are good that they are in unicorn status for now. At least we know they are around. And we can fish for them. It’s the hunt that still makes it exciting.

 

 

 

If they held kings to 7” (like Atlantic’s)instead of 2-4”, survival would be drastically higher.  With natural reproduction, you would see way more returns than Atlantic’s.  It’s been proven they have survival issues due to thiamine deficiency.  They stock 240,000 Atlantic’s Lake wide and a little bit more coho and coho returns are way better than Atlantic’s.  They are a great species but they are a poor investment. You come on a predominately trollers website with like minded people (for the most part) and pound your chest about Atlantic’s time and time again yet contribute nothing else.  I find it comical Dave. 

[King Davy]

Brian you see this as only a trolling web board? That’s a shame. It’s way more than that and just shows off your myopic view of the fishing world. There are hundreds and hundreds of people using our streams right now. Take a drive from RT 19 through your local river to Rt 18. People from all over the country here as a river fishing destination. Like I said I was with folks from Rhode Island, Tennessee. And as far away as Montana just yesterday. 
 

The 2019-2020 angler hours number was nearly 1.8 million hours. And don’t give me the tired argument that most of it was on the Salmon river. Yes much of it was because it has the largest infrastructure to accommodate visitors. and is a true tail water fishery that can stay open all winter. We have two of these in region 8 and they are fished every day. 
 

You seem to love to pick on programs that don’t necessarily benefit your trolling profile. Here’s one for you. DEC, US F&W and USGS just stocked a 1000 sturgeon in the Genny. You’ll likely not catch them either, so pick on that program as well.

 

Like it or not…. This fishery just isn’t only about trolling. From a usage standpoint it’s way more used at this time for stream and river fishing rather than just trolling. Get the facts and stop always firing from the hip (lip). 

[HB2]

Every time I drive to my cottage on Sandy from Holley , including this morning , I drive across 6 bridges that cross the creek , on propose . This morning there were probably 50 cars total . Most from out of state . A lot of money there . 

 

I don't get why we can't be happy for another guys passion with this diverse  fishery .Of all the fishing of the LO trout /salmon , my favorite, and I do it all, is spring steelhead fly fishing .  With the the Atlantic's, we're  only talking about a few fish in the grand scheme of this fishery . 

 

Sure would be nice to have a nice new shiny state of the art hatchery . 

 

[GAMBLER]

1 hour ago, King Davy said:

Brian you see this as only a trolling web board? That’s a shame. It’s way more than that and just shows off your myopic view of the fishing world. There are hundreds and hundreds of people using our streams right now. Take a drive from RT 19 through your local river to Rt 18. People from all over the country here as a river fishing destination. Like I said I was with folks from Rhode Island, Tennessee. And as far away as Montana just yesterday. 
 

The 2019-2020 angler hours number was nearly 1.8 million hours. And don’t give me the tired argument that most of it was on the Salmon river. Yes much of it was because it has the largest infrastructure to accommodate visitors. and is a true tail water fishery that can stay open all winter. We have two of these in region 8 and they are fished every day. 
 

You seem to love to pick on programs that don’t necessarily benefit your trolling profile. Here’s one for you. DEC, US F&W and USGS just stocked a 1000 sturgeon in the Genny. You’ll likely not catch them either, so pick on that program as well.

 

Like it or not…. This fishery just isn’t only about trolling. From a usage standpoint it’s way more used at this time for stream and river fishing rather than just trolling. Get the facts and stop always firing from the hip (lip). 

This is not just a trolling board, but the majority of guys here are big lake guys or both.  They also come here and participate on more topics than just Atlantics.  The sturgeon restoration program is a great program and is VERY successful.  I would love to see a catch and release season for them in my lifetime.  I fish the Genny for catfish and walleye with my kid so chances are I will catch one sometime.  I have buddies that have caught them fishing catfish many times.  The sandy out of state crowd has been here for years for browns.  It's great for the entire fishery and the local community.  They are not here for the Atlantics....  If the DEC can figure out a strain of Atlantics that survive as well as the original strain and the program is more successful, I am 100% behind bumping up the stockings to make a better fishery.   I love how you think I only troll the lake.  Little do you know, I have fished along side of you at the Genny a couple times with my spey rod and fly rod over the last 20 years.  I also shared a pool with you at the Douglaston on the Salmon River years ago.  But hey, I'm just a trolling guy.   

[King Davy]

You called it a predominantly trolling web board not I. Go read you words. I don’t know you, but if you recognized me fishing along side you why not come over and introduce yourself. I’d love to put a name to a face. Sure people come here for the world class stream brown trout fishing. ( why we worked the 1 brown trout limit into the regs). But there are many who now ask about LL especially when they catch one. My wife’s clients from Rhode Island the past three days were aware of LL’s in the system asked about them and would have loved to catch one. They are in the mix, are being caught and enjoyed. What’s the big deal?

 

these fish are not replacing a single other species in the stocking plan. They are an added bonus mostly for the trib environment. Why is that a big deal?

 

The management plan included the Feds bringing a strain of LL to the table out of Vermont that are supposed to be resistant to low B1 thimane-ease break down. What’s the issue with the scientists doing science?

 

Good on you for taking your son fishing and introducing him to several types of fishing. I wish you both lots of success. If you run into me on a river come over and introduce yourself.

[Gill-T]

Someone please kill this thread.  

[GAMBLER]

7 minutes ago, King Davy said:

You called it a predominantly trolling web board not I. Go read you words. I don’t know you, but if you recognized me fishing along side you why not come over and introduce yourself. I’d love to put a name to a face. Sure people come here for the world class stream brown trout fishing. ( why we worked the 1 brown trout limit into the regs). But there are many who now ask about LL especially when they catch one. My wife’s clients from Rhode Island the past three days were aware of LL’s in the system asked about them and would have loved to catch one. They are in the mix, are being caught and enjoyed. What’s the big deal?

 

these fish are not replacing a single other species in the stocking plan. They are an added bonus mostly for the trib environment. Why is that a big deal?

 

The management plan included the Feds bringing a strain of LL to the table out of Vermont that are supposed to be resistant to low B1 thimane-ease break down. What’s the issue with the scientists doing science?

 

Good on you for taking your son fishing and introducing him to several types of fishing. I wish you both lots of success. If you run into me on a river come over and introduce yourself.

I have a question for you that you might be able to answer.  Why are most atlantics in rough shape when they are stocked.  The majority of Atlantics I have caught over the years have damaged dorsal and pectoral fins?  I would think they could get better survival stocking a better product.  I was fishing the Douglaston with Jason Franz years ago and the DEC stocked some Atlantics and were were catching them.  Every single one we landed had damaged fins.  

[AAA]

I don't understand how anyone can have the position that the Atlantic stocking program is not struggling compared to the other stocking programs.  Using the current DEC stocking plan numbers there are roughly 6 Kings, 3 Browns, 3 Steelhead, 2 Lake Trout and 1 Coho stocked for every 1 Atlantic. 

 

I think we can all agree the open lake harvest of Trout and Salmon reduces the non-Atlantic Salmon numbers far greater as Atlantics are a rare catch in the open lake compared to all the other species.  Yet the return numbers for Kings, Coho, Browns, and Steelhead far exceed their stocking ratio compared to the Atlantic.  You certainly do not see one Atlantic caught for every 6 Kings, 3 Browns, 3 Steelhead or every Coho in total across the tributaries. 

 

I also do not buy the argument that if Atlantics were stocked in greater numbers they would have a better survival rate.  Coho Salmon are the best direct comparison since they are stocked in similar numbers and both have the advantage of being stocked as Yearlings.  Atlantics also have the advantage of not necessarily dying after spawning, yet Coho numbers exceed Atlantics.

 

I don't have a problem with Atlantic's, but not sure the current stocking program is worth the effort until they figure out how to get better survivability.

[King Davy]

Brian, I was with a group of guys who clipped the LL’s this past March at the ADK hatchery that were meant for the LO pen project on the Salmon River at the lighthouse marina.

 

it was so cold in the pens house there was ice formed on the pipes circulating the water. The water the fish were in was very cold, which is pretty unavoidable in the ADK in March. But also affects growth.

 

When you observe fin rot or folding it normally means a possible crowding issue. We put 5k steelhead in the two pens we run at Oak Orchard. They seem to fair well at that number. We put 5k salmon in the pens at the SR (15k in three pens)and some LL experts say that’s too many per pen. Should be 2,500. The LL’s need more space. And we did observe fin rot and folding.

 

For years and years the Salmon river LL’s were stocked at less than a year old at the top end of the river. In hopes as they swam the 11 miles to the lake they’d imprint to the SR. Can you imagine if you did that to the chinooks . They’d be gobbled up before they got out. As the LL’s were.

 

Meanwhile they were stocked at the mouth of the other river at Oak. The returns to the Oak have been successful. Two weeks ago walking the Oak A colleague counted 24 LL’s behind a pod of kings up through the fast water and saw several caught by smart anglers fishing to the flanks of the kings.

 

Two seasons ago DEC began stocking full one year old LL’s at the mouth of the salmon river. Think about the last two summers. Drought conditions this summer the worse in many years, low water, no flush to induce summer runs, even with a few kayak releases.

 

LL salmon imprint at 48 to 52 degrees in a river. The only marina the past two years to offer space at the SR for the pens will not put their docks in until May. By the time the fish arrive, they imprinted at the hatchery in ADK or the opportunity was missed at the SR because the temp has exceeded optimal imprinting range.

 

The crowding in the Pens also enacted higher mortality than expected and the fish were released early. Further complicating condition and probably survival. The LL ‘s I’ve seen at Sandy and the Oak have been decent looking fish. Most are true grilse ( 3 to 5 pound’s) but there have been some brutes caught in Sandy, Oswego a true 15 pound fish and some nice ones in the Oak and the SR. Several caught in the DSR in Sept and Oct.

 

The other factor is since they arrive the same time the kings do, they do get bullied by the kings as do the  brown trout. So they get pushed out of the runs the kings decide to hold gravel in. 
 

Many anglers are focused on those big fish and not finding the LL’s but they are there. My buddy caught four LL’s in the Sycamore hole two weeks ago fishing well behind the spawning kings. He was actually fishing for them.

 

Also LL salmon are not fished for overly successfully bottom bouncing. Or fishing near bottom. Much like king salmon LL’s aren’t actively feeding once in a river. But they will much like King salmon strike out of instinct. ( Which is why I enjoy swinging streamers at both kings and LL’s because it’s a very effective way to elicit that primal instinct to kill something. Many guys fishing for browns right now are not swinging streamers but rather egg or bead fishing, or nymphing. Not the most effective way to catch LL’s. Not impossible but not nearly as effective as to have a bug or streamer swinging high in the water column. 
 

So while a LL may be present in your run, the anglers aren’t likely fishing the most effective method.

 

The DEC is never going to be able to stock millions of LL’s. Why? Because it wouldn’t be a good management move to add that many fish to an already stressed food web. Even though LL’s are an extremely diverse forage feeder. And there isn’t many hundreds of thousands or millions available in federal hatcheries anywhere in the US.

 

Much like the Sturgeon program. They are trying to find a strain that successfully survives the LO lake and tribs. Next hoping to find a watershed that  actually produce wild fish. That has happened in the Salmon river. Not to the point where you can expect a wild production of LL’s to create a super sport fishery. However if they can find success even in a limited fashion they can claim some victory on their Mantra to revive a heritage species, maybe there is some sport fishing impact as minimal as it might be.

 

And all of that can’t be a distraction or a detriment to the rest of the stocking program for at this point it isn’t.  
 

That’s the situation in a nut shell. I love Atlantic Salmon for sure. But I love all of our salmonid species and fish hard for them all. Would I personally love to have a highly viable LL fishery??? Sure but I’m very happy to at least have them in the mix I get to fish for on a river. 

 

 

 

[tuffishooker]

Ditto on closing the thread ! This is going no were IMO !

[Trouthunter]

All you have to do is look at the Lake Superior State success rate of Atlantic's salmon into the upper great lakes maybe they can learn something from their program long live our great lakes fishery enough said on this subject

[King Davy]

Roger Griel is the biologist at the university and the head of the salmon program in the St Mary’s. There has been many meetings between Roger and DEC. I’ve visited his hatchery which is in the basement of the power company on the river. Truly spartan facility at one time.

 

it took Roger I think he said 12 to 15 years to find the right strain and hatchery solutions to finally be successful.

 

But there is a big difference in the environments. His fish are benefiting from the colder waters coming out of Superior all summer long. It’s a big river with a huge flush of water into Huron. The river has huge smelt runs well into summer, and huge caddis and hex hatches. So there is plenty of forage and water quality to bring the LL’s in while they are still feeding before they move to spawning mode.

 

fabulous fishery, but not nearly and apples to apples comparison for available environments which is the number one key in getting salmon to return and be happy in a river.

[GAMBLER]

3 hours ago, Trouthunter said:

All you have to do is look at the Lake Superior State success rate of Atlantic's salmon into the upper great lakes maybe they can learn something from their program long live our great lakes fishery enough said on this subject

Huron doesn’t have many alewife left.  More diverse diet = less thiamine deficiency which in turn = less mortality.

Edited November 14, 2022 by GAMBLER

[Trouthunter]

43 minutes ago, GAMBLER said:

Huron doesn’t have many alewife left.  More diverse diet = less thiamine deficiency which in turn = less mortality.

Gambler we also have a diverse diet here our fish are feeding on different baitfish populations just look at the stomach contents of the fish you catch

 

[GAMBLER]

On 11/14/2022 at 3:17 PM, Trouthunter said:

Gambler we also have a diverse diet here our fish are feeding on different baitfish populations just look at the stomach contents of the fish you catch

 

The trawling data and the stomach collection data shows your statement to be false.  The majority of the forage base in Lake Ontario is Alewife. (85% according to the trawling data in the link here)  Weideletal_AprilPreyFishSurveyAlewifeAssess2022.pdf (glfc.org) The rest of the species are a drop in the bucket (6% smelt, 4% goby and 4% deep water sculpin) .  Lake Ontario salmonoids consume mostly alewife.  Lakers and browns eat some gobies but the rest rely on very very heavy alewife heavy diets.  Diet and trophic niche space and overlap of Lake Ontario salmonid species using stable isotopes and stomach contents - ScienceDirect.  Until this changes, the thiamine issue isn't going anywhere.  

 

[tuffishooker]

The stomach contended of the fish we caught reflects the same ; mostly alewife and a few smelt !

[Yankee Troller]

On 11/12/2022 at 8:56 PM, King Davy said:

The powers that be running the LO fishery have decided they are all in on AS. Good bad or indifferent that’s the play. So stop whining and just fish for what ever is your passion and I’ll do the same. I catch them, I enjoy them and I guess you don’t.  Oh well.

 

They sure are, and it's ridiculous! The ROI for this project is horrible. Imagine taking those resources and trying to figure out how to make what we have even better.

Edited November 21, 2022 by Yankee Troller

[spoonfed-1]

On 11/13/2022 at 2:24 PM, King Davy said:

Brian, I was with a group of guys who clipped the LL’s this past March at the ADK hatchery that were meant for the LO pen project on the Salmon River at the lighthouse marina.

 

it was so cold in the pens house there was ice formed on the pipes circulating the water. The water the fish were in was very cold, which is pretty unavoidable in the ADK in March. But also affects growth.

 

When you observe fin rot or folding it normally means a possible crowding issue. We put 5k steelhead in the two pens we run at Oak Orchard. They seem to fair well at that number. We put 5k salmon in the pens at the SR (15k in three pens)and some LL experts say that’s too many per pen. Should be 2,500. The LL’s need more space. And we did observe fin rot and folding.

 

For years and years the Salmon river LL’s were stocked at less than a year old at the top end of the river. In hopes as they swam the 11 miles to the lake they’d imprint to the SR. Can you imagine if you did that to the chinooks . They’d be gobbled up before they got out. As the LL’s were.

 

Meanwhile they were stocked at the mouth of the other river at Oak. The returns to the Oak have been successful. Two weeks ago walking the Oak A colleague counted 24 LL’s behind a pod of kings up through the fast water and saw several caught by smart anglers fishing to the flanks of the kings.

 

Two seasons ago DEC began stocking full one year old LL’s at the mouth of the salmon river. Think about the last two summers. Drought conditions this summer the worse in many years, low water, no flush to induce summer runs, even with a few kayak releases.

 

LL salmon imprint at 48 to 52 degrees in a river. The only marina the past two years to offer space at the SR for the pens will not put their docks in until May. By the time the fish arrive, they imprinted at the hatchery in ADK or the opportunity was missed at the SR because the temp has exceeded optimal imprinting range.

 

The crowding in the Pens also enacted higher mortality than expected and the fish were released early. Further complicating condition and probably survival. The LL ‘s I’ve seen at Sandy and the Oak have been decent looking fish. Most are true grilse ( 3 to 5 pound’s) but there have been some brutes caught in Sandy, Oswego a true 15 pound fish and some nice ones in the Oak and the SR. Several caught in the DSR in Sept and Oct.

 

The other factor is since they arrive the same time the kings do, they do get bullied by the kings as do the  brown trout. So they get pushed out of the runs the kings decide to hold gravel in. 
 

Many anglers are focused on those big fish and not finding the LL’s but they are there. My buddy caught four LL’s in the Sycamore hole two weeks ago fishing well behind the spawning kings. He was actually fishing for them.

 

Also LL salmon are not fished for overly successfully bottom bouncing. Or fishing near bottom. Much like king salmon LL’s aren’t actively feeding once in a river. But they will much like King salmon strike out of instinct. ( Which is why I enjoy swinging streamers at both kings and LL’s because it’s a very effective way to elicit that primal instinct to kill something. Many guys fishing for browns right now are not swinging streamers but rather egg or bead fishing, or nymphing. Not the most effective way to catch LL’s. Not impossible but not nearly as effective as to have a bug or streamer swinging high in the water column. 
 

So while a LL may be present in your run, the anglers aren’t likely fishing the most effective method.

 

The DEC is never going to be able to stock millions of LL’s. Why? Because it wouldn’t be a good management move to add that many fish to an already stressed food web. Even though LL’s are an extremely diverse forage feeder. And there isn’t many hundreds of thousands or millions available in federal hatcheries anywhere in the US.

 

Much like the Sturgeon program. They are trying to find a strain that successfully survives the LO lake and tribs. Next hoping to find a watershed that  actually produce wild fish. That has happened in the Salmon river. Not to the point where you can expect a wild production of LL’s to create a super sport fishery. However if they can find success even in a limited fashion they can claim some victory on their Mantra to revive a heritage species, maybe there is some sport fishing impact as minimal as it might be.

 

And all of that can’t be a distraction or a detriment to the rest of the stocking program for at this point it isn’t.  
 

That’s the situation in a nut shell. I love Atlantic Salmon for sure. But I love all of our salmonid species and fish hard for them all. Would I personally love to have a highly viable LL fishery??? Sure but I’m very happy to at least have them in the mix I get to fish for on a river. 

 

 

 

Is the state getting Federal money for the AS program?

Edited November 21, 2022 by spoonfed-1

[Yankee Troller]

On 11/21/2022 at 8:51 AM, spoonfed-1 said:

Is the state getting Federal money for the AS program?

 

My understanding is the LT and AS program are both Federally funded. We're also supposed to take it and like it otherwise funding for programs like lamprey control can be pulled as they fall under the same budget/program to restore the Great Lakes. Gotta love politicians! One instance where they DON'T follow the money......lol.

[spoonfed-1]

16 hours ago, Yankee Troller said:

 

My understanding is the LT and AS program are both Federally funded. We're also supposed to take it and like it otherwise funding for programs like lamprey control can be pulled as they fall under the same budget/program to restore the Great Lakes. Gotta love politicians! One instance where they DON'T follow the money......lol.

That is my understanding as well. If it is the case the ROI you talked about earlier might be positive. Just not for the regular guy that fishes the lake or the communities along the southern shore. I'm waiting to hear from King Davy on this but so far nothing. He had an awful lot to say until I asked that question so maybe he's just out fishing or worse digging out of the amazing amount of snow some areas got hit with. I also posed the same question a couple years ago when the Salmon stocking was being cut substantially but the Lake Trout stocking didn't seem to be any problem as far as the  bait fish decline. It seems that federal money impacts decisions that don't seem to make sense for the LO salmon fishery.

Edited November 23, 2022 by spoonfed-1