We need more fish

[spoonfed-1]

xxx

Edited November 23, 2022 by spoonfed-1

[Trouthunter]

Why does the Landlocks do so well in Cayuga Lake then is not their baitfish the same as Ontario

[GAMBLER]

1 hour ago, Trouthunter said:

Why does the Landlocks do so well in Cayuga Lake then is not their baitfish the same as Ontario

Do they do well?  How many reach maturity and spawn multiple times?  What is a big atlantic in Cayuga? How many atlantics are caught over 10lbs?   Does Cayuga have a more diverse biomass for atlantics?  Without alewife and a better food source with low levels of Thiaminase, they would do WAY better.  There simply isn't the data on the Fingerlakes Atlantic program like there is on the St. Mary's river and great lakes atlantics.  Do the research and you will see Atlantics do not do well with Alewife as a food source.  This Clip below is directly from the DEC.  It is FACT that the thiamine deficiency is a known problem. 

[HB2]

If the Feds are footing the bill for this , I don't see what the problem is . As much as everyone hates the lake trout , they sure save the day more times than a lot of us would like to admit . That is  a successful fed program . I'll take a let's wait and see attitude on this . 

A diverse LO fishery is a great thing .All the more reason for people to come here .  And no one style angler , lake or trib owns it . Both contribute financially to the state tax revenue . 

[Trouthunter]

On 11/23/2022 at 12:48 AM, GAMBLER said:

Do they do well?  How many reach maturity and spawn multiple times?  What is a big atlantic in Cayuga? How many atlantics are caught over 10lbs?   Does Cayuga have a more diverse biomass for atlantics?  Without alewife and a better food source with low levels of Thiaminase, they would do WAY better.  There simply isn't the data on the Fingerlakes Atlantic program like there is on the St. Mary's river and great lakes atlantics.  Do the research and you will see Atlantics do not do well with Alewife as a food source.  This Clip below is directly from the DEC.  It is FACT that the thiamine deficiency is a known problem. 

So you are saying that the alewife has declined so the atlantics should have a better time at it now yes

[GAMBLER]

12 hours ago, Trouthunter said:

So you are saying that the alewife has declined so the atlantics should have a better time at it now yes

They are still 85% of the forage base and the large majority of all trout and salmons diet.  Read the link I posted again and pay special attention to this sentence.  "unlike other salmonines that may experience impaired reproductive success under low thiamine conditions (e.g. poor egg quality, reduced embryo/fry survival), thiamine deficiency in Atlantic salmon can result in adult mortality" .  This has been scientifically proven and there is a lot of information about it out there.  Do you not believe that the data on Atlantic salmon mortality is real?  The link I posted was directly from the DEC website.  

[GAMBLER]

On 11/23/2022 at 8:49 AM, HB2 said:

If the Feds are footing the bill for this , I don't see what the problem is . As much as everyone hates the lake trout , they sure save the day more times than a lot of us would like to admit . That is  a successful fed program . I'll take a let's wait and see attitude on this . 

A diverse LO fishery is a great thing .All the more reason for people to come here .  And no one style angler , lake or trib owns it . Both contribute financially to the state tax revenue . 

We have been waiting and seeing for over 20 years and still the same results (little tweeks to the program have made things a tiny bit better).  It's the wasted resources and effort that could be put into other parts of the fishery and have a positive outcome.  With mortality due to alewife diet, the only way to make the program significantly improve is to get rid of alewife.  Stocking atlantics year after year with the adult mortality due to alewife diet still not resolved is not a going to change the outcome. What is the definition of insanity?  Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different outcome.  I'm all for a diverse fishery but putting time and effort into a project that has a giant hurdle that we can't get over is a waste of time.   If this program goes on long enough, evolution might change Atlanitcs and they might evolve to withstand eating alewife in Lake O without dying.  It might not be my lifetime but we will get there.   

[HB2]

5 hours ago, GAMBLER said:

We have been waiting and seeing for over 20 years and still the same results (little tweeks to the program have made things a tiny bit better).  It's the wasted resources and effort that could be put into other parts of the fishery and have a positive outcome.  With mortality due to alewife diet, the only way to make the program significantly improve is to get rid of alewife.  Stocking atlantics year after year with the adult mortality due to alewife diet still not resolved is not a going to change the outcome. What is the definition of insanity?  Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different outcome.  I'm all for a diverse fishery but putting time and effort into a project that has a giant hurdle that we can't get over is a waste of time.   If this program goes on long enough, evolution might change Atlanitcs and they might evolve to withstand eating alewife in Lake O without dying.  It might not be my lifetime but we will get there.   

Well, the people that give us this great fishery seem to think they can make it work . 2 days ago I heard of guy that said he  caught a good amount of Atlantic's . I have heard of trib guys in my area getting some , so they are there . Let them try . If it's a 

flop ,then maybe they learn something about the fishery to make it better all around 

 

There a guys that would like to see them in the tribs  ( me included ) so let the feds try . It's not hurting or taking away anything from  anyone or a least not much .  Maybe it's a waste of effort and resources but we do that all the time.

 

When I first started doing this back in the late 70s ,  there were way more steelhead and the average size was much bigger . The lake was packed full of Alwives. It didn't seem that thimine deficiency was a problem back then ? 

[Sk8man]

I Think HB2 makes some good points. We may need to be more accepting of the attempt to make a more diverse fishery. There are some known impediments as well as the unknowns though. One of the major obstacles for the Atlantics long term has been the lack of access to the traditional spawning environments on the south side of the lake (damming of streams, poor water quality and lack of food sources in streams for the young etc.) as well as the thiamine deficiency. The Atlantics won't be feeding heavily on the Round Goby (or sculpin for that matter) as other fish like lakers, browns, bass and others as they are not traditionally bottom feeders and normally populate the upper stratified areas of the water. Populations of the other potential food sources like Cisco, Shad, and others may not be of suitable levels or may not be accessible to them for various reasons. I  have wondered for years whether Atlantics access the Atlantic ocean while maturing via the St. Lawrence and Hudson and then have trouble getting back to Lake O streams or imprinting doesn't occur properly  and they go other places to drop their eggs. I know it sounds a bit far fetched but I have never seen the issue addressed anywhere It is always assumed that the poor "survival" rate reflects mortality when it possible is that they have left the area.

[spoonfed-1]

On 11/23/2022 at 8:49 AM, HB2 said:

If the Feds are footing the bill for this , I don't see what the problem is . As much as everyone hates the lake trout , they sure save the day more times than a lot of us would like to admit . That is  a successful fed program . I'll take a let's wait and see attitude on this . 

A diverse LO fishery is a great thing .All the more reason for people to come here .  And no one style angler , lake or trib owns it . Both contribute financially to the state tax revenue . 

Absolutely nothing wrong with trying to develop an AS fishery in LO. However if we are to believe the data that tells us the bait fish population is in bad shape does this make sense? The majority of people, especially out of state fishermen come to LO and contribute a whole lot of money to the communities along the southern shore to catch Kings, and they settle for the other species when kings aren't available in any specific area. If we have another couple tough winters and the bait situation deteriorates we know what stocking numbers will be cut again. It won't be the Atlantic's or Lakers. Does Federal money influence these decisions or are they based on maintaining and enhancing a fishery the majority of fisherman want and we already have?

 

I should also mention that when I want to jump in the boat solo and hit the lake for a few peaceful hours on a beautiful morning, my personal preference is catching big Browns on light rods so my opinions and observations are not based on me,me,me or "my agenda" as I read here so often. Also I am in no way anti DEC and I'm fully aware of the importance of the agency. I will however question decisions made based on what I'm told and what I see going on on the lake. "Shooting from the hip and wrong" as I've been told.

Hope everyone had a fantastic Thanksgiving!!!

Edited November 25, 2022 by spoonfed-1

[King Davy]

I’m not sure after reading the last group of posts what you are looking for Spoon-fed. New York State is getting the majority of LL salmon from a federal hatchery in Vermont. The ADK state hatchery will continue to produce the same number of LL salmon for the finger lakes and some for LO as they have since the 80’s.

 

From a funding perspective there is no change from the standpoint of taking monies from the other LO stocking programs to run this one.

 

Gambler and others you would serve yourself well to go log into the Great Lakes Fishey Commission. The Federal programs developed way back in the 1950’s on the control of lampreys and the restoration of Native Great Lakes Species. For the past 70 years the two have been tied together. 
 

Personally I can’t see the Feds stopping the lamprey program just because a state quits a native species restoration program but these guidelines were put forth back when there wasn’t a pacific salmon program in the Great Lakes and F&W was looking to bring back native species.

 

I for the life of me can’t fathom why any true sports fishing angler would have anything against trying to add diversity to a fishery as long as it doesn’t harm the existing program. Having and extra 80k LL in the entire lake that not only eat herring, but gobies, perch, shiners and insects. So this species won’t be a big player in the lake but probably in the tribs. It’s because they aren’t an off shore fish to where many of you spend most of the season.

 

As far as them not getting caught in the tribs, I’ve heard the same story HB2 states that lots are being caught in the western tribs. But today in a conversation with Chris Legard with a former DEC employee was told by Chris the creel survey crews working the two tribs they are stocked in out west shows a large catch rate of LL’s . 
 

I’ve not caught any but I haven’t been fishing the western tribs lately. Working the bigger rivers instead. It’s amazing what weather does to fish movement. Because of low water I’m catching brown trout in a big river to where I’ve caught a handful of them the past 40 years. Now landing several a trip on top of the steelhead.

 

There is no down turn in stocking of other species other than what DEC has cut from the bait fish assessment. They must have assessed that the number of LL’s stocked isn’t going to negatively effect the current situation. 
 

I don’t get to lake fish as often but I hope for the best for all that do, especially the guys who are guiding. So why is there anger if the tributary fishery might get a boost from another species of fish that I can tell you are a blast to catch in a river.

 

Brian, I fish the Cayuga tribs and there are plenty of 10 plus pound salmon, and many many nice 5 to 8 pound fish that put on a spectacular show. So not sure how much hands on experience you have there but your experience certainly hasn’t been mine. 

 

[Gill-T]

Agreed, Atlantics are a non-factor in the ecosystem. Much to do about nothing. 

[Gill-T]

Perhaps the fish are there after all. I heard it through the grapevine that the fish cleaners servicing the Oswego River fishermen have seen a huge push of kings and there have been reports of some fairly fresh kings being caught in the Salmon River. Perhaps they are evolving to a warmer environment and running later after everyone’s boats are put away?  I have been asking about Canadian runs and they start in August but are over in October. They have cooler stream temps on the North shore compared to the Oswego River. Can anyone verify these “reports” or is it old news?

Edited December 5, 2022 by Gill-T

[GAMBLER]

15 hours ago, Gill-T said:

Perhaps the fish are there after all. I heard it through the grapevine that the fish cleaners servicing the Oswego River fishermen have seen a huge push of kings and there have been reports of some fairly fresh kings being caught in the Salmon River. Perhaps they are evolving to a warmer environment and running later after everyone’s boats are put away?  I have been asking about Canadian runs and they start in August but are over in October. They have cooler stream temps on the North shore compared to the Oswego River. Can anyone verify these “reports” or is it old news?

The fish cleaners I see on facebook said the run on the Salmon River was huge this fall for kings and coho.  

[HB2]

I did pretty well in Sandy this fall and other guys also . Not as good as 2 and 3 years ago but good and I did not fish as much.  

 

So with all the hullabaloo about there not being a lot of kings in the lake this year , maybe we weren't fishing the part of the lake the kings were . 

[Gill-T]

Interesting perspective from Lake Michigan. 
 

 

[GAMBLER]

10 hours ago, Gill-T said:

Interesting perspective from Lake Michigan. 
 

 

I had a conference call with Adam and Jeremy the other night.  They were telling how much bait they had.  It's good to see Lake Michigan on the uphill swing.