Genesee River Pen Project on April 10, 2023

[Dream Catcher]

The Genesee River will be receiving Chinooks for the Genesee River pen project on April 10, 2023. We will be holding a work party to put the net pens into the water on April 5, 2023 at 4 PM.  Volunteers are needed to help. The location will be Shumway Marine.

[thumbburn]

Did the genny receive an increase in fish like the oak did?:…

[UNREEL]

I’ll be there Sam

[bluewater1861]

See you guys there

[Dream Catcher]

On 3/30/2023 at 7:30 PM, thumbburn said:

Did the genny receive an increase in fish like the oak did?:…

Yes, the genny will get 126,000 chinooks 

[Dream Catcher]

On 3/30/2023 at 8:39 PM, UNREEL said:

I’ll be there Sam

Great!!! See you Wednesday 

[Dream Catcher]

On 3/30/2023 at 7:30 PM, thumbburn said:

Did the genny receive an increase in fish like the oak did?:…

Yes 

[Fern Driftwood]

Why Chinooks only in the Genny? Why don't they do steelhead there as well? 

[Missdemeanor]

I will take this one Sam....

      The Genesse raised steelhead for many many years... And for many many years, the project fell on the backs of the same Lake anglers. Fast forward to a few years ago..... The DEC gets influenced by a hand full of people ( non lake anglers) to lower the creel limits of steelhead in tribs as well as the lake. The new creel limit was adopted with much opposition from the Lake guys. So now if people catch more than 2 steel, #3 has to get tossed back... Even if it's dead... Illegal to keep #3... And steelhead tend to not make it when you bring em in on junk rods or from deep depths....

   Lake Anglers made a very good argument that fell on deaf ears.... And the new regulation went through...

   So after a vote at the ( then ) Genesee Charter Boat Association meeting... It was unanimous that we cease raising steelhead... I mean it was Lake Guys who did all the work anyway  and got a regulation jammed down our throats.

   So we have been approached many times since then to start raising steelhead again... We would love to... But only when the Lake Creel limit returns to 3.

   Not alot to ask, since it was our sweat and bull work that has made this program possible from the beginning....

  The simple solution... Bring it back to 3 silvers ( including steelhead) and we would 100% raise them right next to our kings.

[HB2]

3 minutes ago, Missdemeanor said:

I will take this one Sam....

      The Genesse raised steelhead for many many years... And for many many years, the project fell on the backs of the same Lake anglers. Fast forward to a few years ago..... The DEC gets influenced by a hand full of people ( non lake anglers) to lower the creel limits of steelhead in tribs as well as the lake. The new creel limit was adopted with much opposition from the Lake guys. So now if people catch more than 2 steel, #3 has to get tossed back... Even if it's dead... Illegal to keep #3... And steelhead tend to not make it when you bring em in on junk rods or from deep depths....

   Lake Anglers made a very good argument that fell on deaf ears.... And the new regulation went through...

   So after a vote at the ( then ) Genesee Charter Boat Association meeting... It was unanimous that we cease raising steelhead... I mean it was Lake Guys who did all the work anyway  and got a regulation jammed down our throats.

   So we have been approached many times since then to start raising steelhead again... We would love to... But only when the Lake Creel limit returns to 3.

   Not alot to ask, since it was our sweat and bull work that has made this program possible from the beginning....

  The simple solution... Bring it back to 3 silvers ( including steelhead) and we would 100% raise them right next to our kings.

Since I  bought our cottage and got involved at Sandy about 8 years ago, I was surprised at the enthusiastic volunteer base . 

I was at a meeting where we learned about the pending creel and size limit change a few years back  . Of course there was some pushback from some of the volunteers . Sandy only has 4 pens which would be just enough for the Sandy allotment of Kings . We were going to borrow one from another port ( which will remain nameless ) but when the head of that port found out steelhead were going into it , they said no way . Kind of like taking your bar and ball and going home . I also heard that some Captains said they would kill every steelhead they caught out of spite . 

I lost a lot of respect for some people that day . 

 

Anyway , We put our steelhead pens in Sat and are getting them sometime this week.There was a Great turnout of volunteers . Next year we will take as many steelhead as we can handle . And maybe a few kings as well 😉

 

And on a side note , a lot of lake angler MF the trib guys , so why would they show up . 

[Missdemeanor]

...I'm glad to see Sandy step up and take the bull by the horns... Not a big fan of how the kings were "re distributed" .. I give Jesse Hollenbeck alot of credit.

.  Good luck to you guys.... Let's hope the king pens return to Sandy and the other ports it was taken from..

 Let's pray for a longer spring so you guys can keep the little guys a little longer....

.   

.  

.  

[Fern Driftwood]

4 hours ago, HB2 said:

Since I  bought our cottage and got involved at Sandy about 8 years ago, I was surprised at the enthusiastic volunteer base . 

I was at a meeting where we learned about the pending creel and size limit change a few years back  . Of course there was some pushback from some of the volunteers . Sandy only has 4 pens which would be just enough for the Sandy allotment of Kings . We were going to borrow one from another port ( which will remain nameless ) but when the head of that port found out steelhead were going into it , they said no way . Kind of like taking your bar and ball and going home . I also heard that some Captains said they would kill every steelhead they caught out of spite . 

I lost a lot of respect for some people that day . 

 

Anyway , We put our steelhead pens in Sat and are getting them sometime this week.There was a Great turnout of volunteers . Next year we will take as many steelhead as we can handle . And maybe a few kings as well 😉

 

And on a side note , a lot of lake angler MF the trib guys , so why would they show up . 

 

I also heard that some Captains said they would kill every steelhead they caught out of spite . 

And on a side note , a lot of lake angler MF the trib guys , so why would they show up . 

 

I guess it's really NOT Lake Ontario United - more like Lake Ontario Divided.  Wow. That's very sad.

[King Davy]

Here’s the truth about what happened at the Genny with Steelhead pens. First let me comment on regulation changes three years ago. The original stakeholder committee was involved in offering regs changes. The members of that committee addressing the tributary fishery offered a 1 one brown trout limit reg change ONLY in the tribs and a 25 inch limit for steelhead. The trib steelhead creel limit was changed from 3 to 1 in 2004. That was it. Never did that group seek a creel reduction for the lake creel on steelhead. They did want to see a universal 25 inch limit open waters and trib. That request was refused at the committee level after discussions and the lake size would remain at 21. There was no push back from lake anglers on the two reg changes to the tribs. 

 

That was it. The DEC through their own discussions made that change. It had nothing to do with any tributary group. Call the DEC in Albany or Cape Vincent and ask them if you don’t believe what I’m writing. Ask them why?

 

Two years ago a group of 30 volunteers both trib and lake anglers to include a few charter boat Captains worked with DEC, a private welder to get materials, funding and permission from Skip Shumway to put two new steelhead pens at the Genny. The Order for materials to be shipped to the welder was being finalized, when Skip called me since I had secured his agreement to let us bring steelhead back to the genny and said and I quote. A few charter boat captains approached me to say they didn’t get along with tributary anglers. I can’t have any trouble on my property so I have to rescind my permission to have them put here.

 

This friction between fisherman is childish. Today at the Oak,  lake anglers including charter captains and trib anglers worked side by side to load 127k salmon and 10k steelhead. Wednesday this week a group of lake and trib anglers like they did last Saturday will join each other to load 10k steelhead into their Sandy creek pens. So why can’t that happen at the Genny where both lake and trib anglers enjoy catching steelhead in both the open waters of the lake and the river?

[GAMBLER]

2 hours ago, King Davy said:

Here’s the truth about what happened at the Genny with Steelhead pens. First let me comment on regulation changes three years ago. The original stakeholder committee was involved in offering regs changes. The members of that committee addressing the tributary fishery offered a 1 one brown trout limit reg change ONLY in the tribs and a 25 inch limit for steelhead. The trib steelhead creel limit was changed from 3 to 1 in 2004. That was it. Never did that group seek a creel reduction for the lake creel on steelhead. They did want to see a universal 25 inch limit open waters and trib. That request was refused at the committee level after discussions and the lake size would remain at 21. There was no push back from lake anglers on the two reg changes to the tribs. 

 

That was it. The DEC through their own discussions made that change. It had nothing to do with any tributary group. Call the DEC in Albany or Cape Vincent and ask them if you don’t believe what I’m writing. Ask them why?

 

Two years ago a group of 30 volunteers both trib and lake anglers to include a few charter boat Captains worked with DEC, a private welder to get materials, funding and permission from Skip Shumway to put two new steelhead pens at the Genny. The Order for materials to be shipped to the welder was being finalized, when Skip called me since I had secured his agreement to let us bring steelhead back to the genny and said and I quote. A few charter boat captains approached me to say they didn’t get along with tributary anglers. I can’t have any trouble on my property so I have to rescind my permission to have them put here.

 

This friction between fisherman is childish. Today at the Oak,  lake anglers including charter captains and trib anglers worked side by side to load 127k salmon and 10k steelhead. Wednesday this week a group of lake and trib anglers like they did last Saturday will join each other to load 10k steelhead into their Sandy creek pens. So why can’t that happen at the Genny where both lake and trib anglers enjoy catching steelhead in both the open waters of the lake and the river?

Yup, the DEC came up with it all on their own……. 

[King Davy]

Yup I was asked to present that to the state council and in attendance was Steve Hurst who also supported the presentation. At the end of it the council wanted to make a TU position statement in support of the two new reg changes to the tribs , and had no statement in any changes to any regs for the lake. And in front of Hurst and the council I said NO. Individual anglers need to decide on their own on if they support these reg changes, and comment back to the DEC. So New York State TU did not make an organized position statement to DEC to the comment period.

 

And I know that Lake clubs and Charter boat groups also discussed these reg changes during the comment period back then as well they should. So what’s the big deal if groups of concerned anglers discuss matters of the fishery? 

 

Yesterday while loading one of the chinook pens at the Oak a section of pipe broke loose and hundreds of salmon par spilled out on the ground. Do you think the trib guys for which there were at least a dozen just sat there and said well these are chinooks flopping around dying in the dirt let the lake guys pick them up?

 

No everybody scrambled to get these beautiful little fish into the water. And by the end they had all been put in and I didn’t see a single dead par laying on the surface.

 

Brian it’s time to stop all this us vs them BS. We all love this fishery no matter where and how we fish it.

[Legacy]

10 hours ago, Fern Driftwood said:

 

 

I guess it's really NOT Lake Ontario United - more like Lake Ontario Divided.  Wow. That's very sad.

 

I entirely disagree. Honestly, It is just a few rotten apples that spoil the bunch. The relationship with trib vs lake guys is actually very solid and on the same page when it comes to the fishery. There are so many guys that spend their time doing both or have done both. The idea that we are fractured just isnt true and the group of ambassadors that sit on the Lake Ontario Fishery Advisory Panel are a great showing of that. The people that are informed and involved are very much on the same page for the health of the fishery as a whole.

Lake guys have always made up the bulk of the work force for pen rearing projects but there are some trib guys that do help up and down the lake. My belief is the average trib fisherman isnt as financially/emotionally invested in the fishery as the average lake fisherman so recruiting them to help has always been a challenge. Most of these projects have been supported by the same group of Lake fisherman for 20+ years so there isnt anything worse then taking one on the chin after years of hard work. Because of this you can see why the lake fisherman are upset when people FIGHT for regulation changes on the lake but yet are unwilling to improve the fishery and volunteer their time with these projects. It took a rash decision to cut steelhead from west central pen rearing projects to get the attention of trib fisherman to get involved. It was a rash decision that many of us pen rearing coordinators made and at the time I believe it was 100 percent the right choice. If I had to make the decision again, I would. Unfortunately it was a political decision and did not benefit the fishery short term but I believe that it got everyone's attention to get involved in a long term effect.

 

Too much BS out there...

 

[Legacy]

15 hours ago, HB2 said:

Sandy only has 4 pens which would be just enough for the Sandy allotment of Kings . We were going to borrow one from another port ( which will remain nameless ) but when the head of that port found out steelhead were going into it , they said no way .

 

 

This might have been taken out of context. It was done in a joking/playful way. We actually only had 3 pens on hand so they actually did supply us with an additional pen so we could pen rear additional Kings in 2019. Funny thing was we actually used the borrowed pen to hold our steelhead and I even called him to bust his chops. We actually just returned that pen back to them on Saturday during our work party.

[King Davy]

There are other factors. One, most of the discussion around LO and alerts to pen rearing is done on this site. Most tributary fishermen that I know and have known forever never ever heard of LOU. 
 

I had my boat at Sandy until 2001 and knew Bob S since I had been the president of the then western Lake Ontario Charter Boat Association, and helped on pens at the Oak and Sandy and at the Genny when Frank Sanza ran that operation. I was always a trib angler and I can tell you several that I fished with joined those efforts. We just didn’t announce how or where we fished. Cause who cares. Let’s just raise these fish and set them free.

Organizations like Trout Unlimited are not now nor have they ever been a threat to any cold water fishery. They work on every type of water that supports cold water species. Any success story of cold water species being supported by anglers is in their play book. Regulations are meant to sustain sport fishing. And there will never be a regulation amendment or change that makes everyone happy. But in the end where has any of this truly ruined anyone’s life or lively hood?

Support them or hate them I can’t imagine anyone walked away from fishing the lake or the tribs due to a fishing creel regulation.

[King Davy]

We are once again going to try and find a place to raise steelhead on the Genny. There is a keen interest from fishermen to do so. Hopefully we can work something out with a location to house the pens. DEC supports this 100% and will provide the materials to build them. And fisherman from all interests have volunteered to take care of them.

[HB2]

The way I see it , we can't change what happened in the past . 

 

So my goal is to help out where I can to make future fishing both lake AND trib as good as possible . Which was my intent from the begining of my involvement . But I soon learned others intent was different from mine . 

 

 

Edited April 4, 2023 by HB2

[GAMBLER]

6 hours ago, King Davy said:

Yup I was asked to present that to the state council and in attendance was Steve Hurst who also supported the presentation. At the end of it the council wanted to make a TU position statement in support of the two new reg changes to the tribs , and had no statement in any changes to any regs for the lake. And in front of Hurst and the council I said NO. Individual anglers need to decide on their own on if they support these reg changes, and comment back to the DEC. So New York State TU did not make an organized position statement to DEC to the comment period.

 

And I know that Lake clubs and Charter boat groups also discussed these reg changes during the comment period back then as well they should. So what’s the big deal if groups of concerned anglers discuss matters of the fishery? 

 

Yesterday while loading one of the chinook pens at the Oak a section of pipe broke loose and hundreds of salmon par spilled out on the ground. Do you think the trib guys for which there were at least a dozen just sat there and said well these are chinooks flopping around dying in the dirt let the lake guys pick them up?

 

No everybody scrambled to get these beautiful little fish into the water. And by the end they had all been put in and I didn’t see a single dead par laying on the surface.

 

Brian it’s time to stop all this us vs them BS. We all love this fishery no matter where and how we fish it.

Dave,  

 

I totally agree on the lake vs trib battle needing to end.  Working together towards the common goal is what we should ALL be focused on (like the new Sandy own project).  To sit here and say the DEC came up with these regs on their own is complete BS.  We all know that is a huge stretch of the truth.  When you have an organization like TU commenting on the proposal (even though some of them will never fish Lake O steelhead just inland trout) it floods the comments and the DEC is going to take that into consideration big time.  The regs have done nothing positive to change the steelhead fishery since they were out into place.  The steelhead numbers don’t seem any higher and size hasn’t seemed to improved. 
 

P.S.  when Jessie contacted Rob about using the pens and restarting the Sandy pen project, I was 100% on board and even offered helping Jessie with anything he needed.  

Edited April 4, 2023 by GAMBLER

[King Davy]

Brian you seem so paranoid about TU. I know how the comment tally ended  up. Number one there wasn’t nearly as many comments from any particular group as you seem to imagine. 
 

I have two theory’s why DEC made a reg change on the lake. I also sat on the bi-national stakeholder group and in listening to MNR and DEC there were/are routinely looking to have standard regs including creel limits. At the time the Canadians had recently dropped their steelhead lake creel to two.

 

The second factor that I know was discussed internally between mangers was the original architected plan that Bill Pearce put together back in the 60’s. I know because one of my very good friends working for DEC at the time helped bring that to the discussion.

 

King and Coho salmon along with brown trout and lake trout were to be the staple fish for the lake, and steelhead were the icing on the cake. Since steelhead spend as much if not more months in a tributary and Bill and his team of biologists and managers stated that steelhead would be the trib staple and the other fish icing on the cake since their river presence was far more limited.

 

So maybe that’s why they made the change. 

[King Davy]

As far as the regs making steelhead fishing better I totally disagree. Before the die off in 2014 from the late 1990’ steelhead were getting hammered on both the lake and tribs due to the fact the 1993 salmon stocking reduction put way more pressure on rainbows. And much tougher king fishing. The reg change in 2004 steelhead fishing right up to the 2014/2015 die off was spectacular, and I can’t speak for others but in that time frame I had four legitimate 20 pound plus fish three out of the Genny. Since the die off we also have bait fish issues and as king salmon sizes have dropped since that 2010 time frame so have the steelhead. But with the regs we now see many more year classes of fish in one season.

 

I will say since the late 90’s serious trib anglers stopped killing steelhead. Trib anglers today don’t harvest nearly as many fish as 20 years ago. Including brown trout and even king salmon. The census results have painted that picture for years. Trib anglers want to manage that fishery much differently than the lake anglers. There is nothing wrong with that.

 

As much as you want to I can tell you  a majority of the folks I know that fish the LO tribs have never blamed poor fishing on the lake anglers killing all the fish. They focus on how those fish are treated in rivers from September through the following May. And look to regulate accordingly.

 

Last thing I’ll say is this.  Where ever you fish, open lake, LO tribs, inland tribs (which are now open year round)….. have a safe fun and successful season what ever that may be to all who have the passion to be fishermen.

 

 

[Fern Driftwood]

On 4/4/2023 at 8:44 AM, King Davy said:

We are once again going to try and find a place to raise steelhead on the Genny. There is a keen interest from fishermen to do so. Hopefully we can work something out with a location to house the pens. DEC supports this 100% and will provide the materials to build them. And fisherman from all interests have volunteered to take care of them.

I have a keen interest in helping make this happen  - but we need a home (like Shumway) for the pens. Can somebody help make that happen?  

[Fern Driftwood]

On 4/4/2023 Gambler said:

 

Yesterday while loading one of the chinook pens at the Oak a section of pipe broke loose and hundreds of salmon par spilled out on the ground. Do you think the trib guys for which there were at least a dozen just sat there and said well these are chinooks flopping around dying in the dirt let the lake guys pick them up?

 

No everybody scrambled to get these beautiful little fish into the water. And by the end they had all been put in and I didn’t see a single dead par laying on the surface

 

I’m one of those TU trib guys.  I was at the Oak on Monday with King Davy and Gambler and helped get those salmon pars off the ground and into the creek. 
you can see for yourself in the pics below how the trib guys jumped right in